OSX design.

Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by threepod, May 25, 2002.

  1. threepod macrumors newbie

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    May 24, 2002
  2. King Cobra macrumors 603

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    #2
    I think it's a bunch of bull!!!! I think that the Dock is one of Apple's most intelligent moves to organize items. I see al the applications beside each other to be fairly reachable, instead of them being somewhat scattered in a folder. And transparency issues would still apply there.

    Besides, have you noticed how old this article is? It's a whole year old! I wonder if this guy has actually achieved financial success instead of badmouthing the Dock.

    And, threepod, why are you even posting information badmouthing Apple's products? This is a Mac forums site. In other words, everyone here should bow down and support at least most of Apple's moves. By posting information about some guy badmouthing something I would assume everyone else, at least, appreciates, since there hasn't been any recent wording down among the forums about it, you are belittling one of Apple's innovation.

    Try to post something a little more useful in the future. I know I may be a little harsh, but at least find links that support Apple or are Apple news (perferably new news).
    __________________

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  3. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #3
    I will respond to this article point-by-point, because I have nothing better to do:

    So what if you have to "scrub"? It's better than the Windows taskbar where when you have 12 windows open you see nothing but tiny icons and highly truncated words. If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. (No, the OS 9 task manager is not a better idea)

    Move the Dock to the side of the screen then.

    This I agree with. There should be an option to put the Dock in the background, or something.

    Then don't put in six or seven folders. Put them on the desktop instead, or put one folder into the Dock that has symlinks to all the folders you want to access, rather than putting all those folders right there at the top level of the Dock.

    I agree with this completely.

    That's simply not true. Just because the icons "move" doesn't mean you can't get used to the way they move. The icons do have a stable location on the screen, and that location is right where they would be if they were not being magnified. Once you get used to that, the magnification feature is really helpful - it actually makes clicking on Dock items easier. And, of course, it's lovely to look at.

    I'm not sure what they mean by this...

    I agree with this. I've always hated both Dock and taskbar hiding. If they would just move the Dock into the background, allowing it to come to the foreground temporarily when it is being used, they wouldn't have to hide it, and it wouldn't interfere with window maximizing.

    This is not true. The Dock doesn't hover just above the bottom. It hovers at the bottom. The icons might not appear to, but you don't have to directly click the actual icon - only at its position on the Dock. You can indeed click at the very edge of the screen.


    OK, that about says it all. Make this the top 9 reasons the Apple Dock sucks. :)

    What? I've never had this happen. I'm not sure what they're getting at with the rest of this point, either.

    I agree with this. Items shouldn't go away in a puff of smoke - they should just get moved to the desktop. If you want to delete something, trash, trash, trash. That's what it's there for.


    Wow! Er, I disagree. :) It does have some problems, but there's no reason it can't improve.


    The Control Strip was a god-awful kludge designed only as a stopgap to overcome OS 9's interface limitations. It's like the Windows "tray," next to the clock. It's where everything that nobody knows what to do with is put. "What the hell is this icon for?" "Click it and see."

    This, I think, would confuse the hell out of people. I think the trash works fine in the Dock, considering it already does abide by Fitt's Law (point 4). The lower right-hand corner "where it belongs?" I think someone is simply unwilling to change their behavior.

    Alex
     
  4. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #4
    This is either a hilariously stupid comment or utterly brilliant sarcasm. :)

    Alex
     
  5. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #5
    Well, lets call Guiness for the longest post in history. he, he. ;)

    Well, I personally did not like the dock when it first came out. Being a user of OS 9 I did not really care for the dock, nor the fact that I could not kill it if I wanted to. Now, having used X for a while, I have learned to love the dock. It is a living dynamic feature in OS X. In X.2 it has even more features, and will become more loved by use faithful. I can tell you this. It isn't going anywhere, so lets all get used to it.
     
  6. cleo macrumors 65816

    cleo

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    #6
    Jeeze, KC, take it down a notch or three. The guy (or girl :)) just asked a question! Yeah, they chose to reference an outdated, critical-of-Apple article, but maybe they're in the market for a Mac and they're wanting to get feedback on whether these are valid points. At any rate, don't bite newbies' heads off, it's just not nice.

    Threepod, I'm not sure what kind of experience you have with OS X or the Dock. But most OS X users will admit that, although they were wary of the Dock at first, it definitely grows on you. That's not to say that a lot of improvements couldn't be made. I personally have found that the bouncing and magnification are just too annoying, and I have also scaled my dock down so that it is quite small. This, and custom folder icons, takes care of most of my gripes, although more document differentiation is promised in Jaguire and will be greatly appreciated.
     
  7. Styles macrumors newbie

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    San Diego, CA.
    #7
    10. No its not. I have mine showing all the time, it has NEVER gotten in the way(excpet when i try to resize windows).
    9. Understood, but I haven't lost anything so far.
    8. Can't have everything.
    7. I don't really get WTF he's talking about there. When you add a new item, things move to the side to allow room for the new item. It works fine.
    6. The trash is FINE in the dock. You ge used to it.
    5. cmd-opt-d is NOT really that hard. Gets rid of the dock perty easy, brings it back perty easy.
    4. Pin your dock to the right side and it's all good.
    3. At least he updated that one.
    2. I never used tabs, never really cared for them. As for the application menu, you gotta love ASM.
    1. Everything in the dock is basically a shortcut(applications at least). Once you learn this you'll be better off. The ACTUAL program doesn't reside in the dock.

    As for the control strip coming back, I disagree. I like the way Apple has everything up in the menu bars right corner, thats where the volume, brightness, and other small things should stay. The writer of this articel needs to get over the dock, it works great. Thats just what I think. Out.
     
  8. Catfish_Man macrumors 68030

    Catfish_Man

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    #8
    The author of the article...

    ...forgot about something. One standard measure of useability is the number of clicks something takes. Here's how opening escape velocity:nova (when it's on my dock) works on my machine now, and before:

    now: click on icon (1 click)
    before: double click on hard drive (2 clicks), option double click on games (4 clicks, one keypress), option double click on evn (6 clicks, 2 keypresses).

    Which one do you think is more efficient?
     
  9. King Cobra macrumors 603

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    Mar 2, 2002
    #9
    All right.

    So I overreacted.

    To be frank about it, I do not appreciate articles authored by some person, who plainly gives his 10 reasons why he still lives in an apartment and has been kicked out of many opportunities, since people find out about how he feels about certain things (in this case, Apple).

    To put it lightly, I still think that the Dock is a great innovation, but could be slightly improved.

    I didn't mean to yell at the guy. I meant that whoever wrote this web really only seems to pay attention to the downsides of everything. He should lighten up.
    __________________

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  10. threepod thread starter macrumors newbie

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    May 24, 2002
    #10
    If you hunt around further on that site you might actually come across a link to this site which actually praises the Mac OS design. The writer is being consistant to these design principles.

    I will NOT bow down to ANYONES design principles just because they are a certain brand. I posted this to get conjecture, and it seems to have worked. I don't give a cr@p if it's a Mac forum, in fact, that's precisely the point. If all you do is sing praises of a brand, what's the point of a forum?
    I love Macs but if that means blindness, I'd prefer something else.

    Thanks to alex_ant for taking the time to formulate a decent response.
     
  11. King Cobra macrumors 603

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    #11
    Guy, relax. I overreacted, plain and simple.

    Let's drop it and see what others think, if it's possible.
    __________________

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  12. threepod thread starter macrumors newbie

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    May 24, 2002
    #12
    did you read the link? some really ProMac/antiMS stuff there

    I know the articles are a bit old. I wish the author would revisit them and revise them.
     
  13. King Cobra macrumors 603

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    Mar 2, 2002
    #13
    If that's a Mac site, I wonder how then this Dock article slipped in.

    Maybe some PC user put it by M$'s front step.
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  14. G4scott macrumors 68020

    G4scott

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    Austin, TX
    #14
    The guy who wrote that article is definitely jealous... My biggest complaint to him are...

    The dock doesn't have to take up tons of space... you can make the icons smaller, and so what if you have to 'scrub'. Find a better way to put 20 items in an easily accessible place that doesn't take up less space than the dock.

    If you push the dock to the back, it would just make it harder to get to what you need. There is something called hiding...

    Sure, you can put the windoze taskbar on the left or right, but it looks really stupid there, since the text is meant to show... The dock looks excellent anywhere on the screen.

    If the dock was meant to replace anything, it was the application switcher and tabbed folders thing, but I think the tabbed folders came because people wanted it, so Apple put it in. If anyone thinks that the dock is a replacement for something like Launcher, you either need to learn how to put your applications folder on the dock, or you are a twit and you need to get a life. That's what the Finder is for. You can put your applications folder, home folder, or any other special folder on the dock with its special folder icon, and that's pretty easy to see, even if it's super small.

    What I love about the dock, is that you don't have to switch to the finder to open a program, document, or anything else. I put my home folder, my applications folder, and some other folders in the dock, and I don't even have to use the finder anymore... If you ask me, it's probably one of the best ways to do what it does without taking up all the screen space and having to switch between apps. What it needs, though, is the ability to show the large contents of a folder very quickly, like my Applications folder, which has more than 70 items. Hopefully, though, Jag-wire :D will solve that problem.
     
  15. Quark macrumors regular

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    Jan 9, 2002
    #15
    We actually need these threads

    I think we should all welcome feedback like this and lists like the 10 worst things about <something>.

    While this list may be a little pickier than we may be comfortable with, it actually helps programmers get additional ideas on how to make a great product, better.

    I think some valid points are made and I would like to see improvements to the Dock -- even though I love it as it is.

    Those are my 2 cents.

    Quark
     
  16. cleo macrumors 65816

    cleo

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    #16
    Or maybe, just maybe, he's not a zealot! ::gasp::

    Waiting for Mischief to find this thread. ::evil grin in anticipation of hardcore pie throwing::
     
  17. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

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    #17
    I believe that the person that created that article suffers from severe rectal-cranial inversion disorder. I didn't see the OS X version he/she/it was commenting on in the article, but I might have missed it. Currently, I have about 30 items in my dock, between applications and minimized windows. As for browser windows, it shows which is for which, along with a mini-view of the page. That allows me to see which one is for my user control panel and what the others go to. I also have mine set to magnify when I pass the mouse over them, since the dock is about 1-1/2 times the size of the top menu bar.

    While it is very true we are a Mac site here, we don't always sing praises to Apple. There have been more then a few threads here b*tching about things Apple has either done, or not done when people think the opposite should have happened.

    Some of us are strong willed, and opionionated too... so watch out, unless you have fireproof shorts.

    As for biting heads off newbies... I thought that was my job.... (checking job description), yup, it's right here.... In the memo I got from eyelikeart. :D
     
  18. MPTV-Ti macrumors newbie

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    San Francisco, CA
    #18
    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe if one has a document minimized in the dock (which would be to the right of the divider) and it is drug onto the desktop it does not disappear into a puff of smoke. It simply goes back into the dock. The only time something "disappears" into a puff of smoke is if it is an icon (link) to a program (which would be to the left of the divider). ??? I find this argument against the dock totally irrelevant.

    Jon

    PS. This is to the guy who wrote the stuff, not you alex_ant. I couldn't get his to "quote" so I used your reply to let people know what I was referring to. :)
     
  19. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #19

    I have a Mac and I think it's great, but when discussing a relevant Macrumors subject, I know I spend about 80% of my time talking about the 20% of the aspects of my Mac that could really use improvement. Would you rather all Macrumors members marched in lockstep, chanting "Hail Jobs" and scorning all dissenters, or would you rather we actually... wait for it... thought objectively and critically?

    Your sig is retarded, by the way.
     
  20. AmbitiousLemon Moderator emeritus

    AmbitiousLemon

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    #20
    wow. talk about zealots here. you guys always bend over for apple so quickly?

    i think this guy is right on regarding most of his points (MOST).

    his points clearly reflect the feedback apple has recieved from developers since thd DP4 days and i bleive that the article is a regurgitation of an earlier article that was written well before the public beta so a lot fo what he says doesnt apply anymore.

    i find it quite amusing you people are so quick to condemn him when apple clearly agrees. take a look at jaguar and you will see quite a few revisions that address points brought up in this article.

    the dock has beena sticking point for people since its inception and has been the most widely discussed aspect of the os in beta rings. apple has heard the message loud and clear and is addressing the issues.

    but the most interesting thing about the problems in the dock is that most of them are a result of apple not following its own human interface guidelines. seems like the whole thing was initially created as a great presentation piece for a keynote.

    but this is chnaging and the dock is really becoming something very useful, and i suspect it will have a few more incarnations in the future.

    as far as the points the author made that i dont agree with, they are clearly a result of someone not being familiar with osx yet. the dock has a pretty steep learning curve for something so simple. take a look at the screenshots threads to get an idea of how many people use very inefficient docks. i have been using osx since dp3 and im still finding new ways to use the dock. so i think the other made some points that just are a reflection of points made by a lot of newbies. i think we were all there at one time or another.


    and dont call him a peecee user for his comments, it is comments like that that made 10.1 and jaguar the great updates that they are. lets try to be more open minded shall we?
     
  21. Choppaface macrumors 65816

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    #21
    10-disagree
    9-agree
    8-disagree
    7-disagree...see 8
    6-agree
    5-disagree
    4-agree w/ point, disagree with relevance
    3-careful mr. writer....get facts straight before you criticize....
    2-agree...I loved tabbed folders in 9 :(
    1-disagree...the dock is not designed to actually dock files...he he


    overall its a very shallow analysis.....good points, but its not developed enough to make conclusions off of

    B+ mwhahahahahha
     
  22. AmbitiousLemon Moderator emeritus

    AmbitiousLemon

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    #22
    i like your style choppa. lets see if i can do the same.

    10) agree. in order to be useful it need to be big, and it can get in the way.

    9) agree. for app icons, who cares, but folders are a problem. documents and windows have been fixed to a degree.

    8) disagree. fixed since article was written

    7) AGREE (big time). any user of the classic system knows you could access any item without using your eyes or much thought.

    6) disagree (to a point) if your dock is full the trash ends up in a corner. most people have full docks.

    5) agree. hiding is a bad idea most of the time, but certain apps need it. a auto hide in [blank] app feature could make good use of the hiding function though so hiding is not all bad.

    4) agree (but didnt he already cover this in 7 and 6? this is like the third time)

    3) disagree. this has been fixed, but again it was true back in the day.

    2) DISAGREE. he hasnt gotten to know osx. the dock is very powerful.

    1) DISAGREE. strangely apple has played with other setups with the dock and found the current behavior to be most intuitive so they stuck with it.

    so lets see if i was right when i said i agreed with most of his statements earlier... 50/50 hm. but a few of the things i disagreed on were true when this was written, so in its time it was mostly true. but #1 and #2 are quite disgusting statements and numbers 6, 7, and 4 are repeats rephrased.

    the original article was much better though and included many mockups of ways to fix the dock. apple has used a lot of the ideas from the original article.
     
  23. macfreek57 macrumors 6502

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    #23

    every mac user has something up their @ss about apple/their products that they always bitch about.
    as for the dock, i personally could not live with it if i hadn't downloaded tinkertool to pin it on the bottom left hand side of the screen.
     
  24. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #24
    Macfreak. Dude, don't be so general in your statements. Not every Mac user has something to bitch about. Some, are very happy with their unsupported systems ;)

    Tounge firmly in cheek.
     
  25. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

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    #25
    Some of use even love our Mac's and have nothing to b*tch about them. I am very happy with my new TiBook. The problems (minor ones) that I saw with the design of my rev. a are completely gone with this one. The worst of which was a 'spongy' keyboard when you went to the arrow keys. The new keyboard is firm all over the place, just as good women are... (where the hell did that come from????). :D
     

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