Palestinians: Tel Aviv Bombing Justified

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Stella, Apr 17, 2006.

  1. Stella macrumors 604

    Stella

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    #1
    Another example. Violence breeds violence, you need to talk. Its about time each side sacrifice some pride and communicate with words.

    ( And for those who don't think that diplomacy works, look back through history and you'll see Diplomacy is more constructive - recent example: Northern Ireland ).


    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060417/D8H1VLLOI.html

    Palestinians: Tel Aviv Bombing Justified
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    Apr 17, 4:29 PM (ET)

    By LAURIE COPANS

    (AP) Israeli border police secure the site of a suicide bomb attack near a fast food restaurant in Tel...
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    TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) - A Palestinian suicide bomber struck a packed fast-food restaurant during Passover on Monday, killing nine other people and wounding dozens in the deadliest attack in more than a year.
    In a sharp departure from the previous Palestinian government's condemnations of bombings, the Hamas-led administration said the attack resulted from Israel's "brutal aggression." The bloodshed and the hard-line stance could set the stage for harsh Israeli reprisals and endanger Palestinian efforts to secure desperately needed international aid.
    Israel said it held Hamas responsible for the attack - even though another group claimed responsibility - and Israel's security chiefs were meeting later Monday to discuss what action to take. Security officials said a ground operation in Gaza was not being considered.
    The attack occurred just two hours before Israel's newly elected parliament was sworn into office, and Prime Minister-designate Ehud Olmert said Israel would react to the bombing with appropriate means.

    (AP) Graphic shows European aid to Palestinian government; two sizes: (AP Graphic)
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    The White House condemned the attack and warned of grave consequences for the new Palestinian government.
    "It is a despicable act of terror for which there is no excuse or justification," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "Defense or sponsorship of terrorist acts by officials of the Palestinian Cabinet will have the gravest effects on relations between the Palestinian Authority and all states seeking peace in the Middle East."
    The European Union, which has cut off aid to the Hamas-led government, also denounced the bombing and called for restraint by both sides.
    Islamic Jihad, which has close ties to Israel's arch enemy, Iran, claimed responsibility for the attack, the first in Israel since the Hamas Cabinet took office 2 1/2 weeks ago.
    The blast came amid a sharp increase in fighting between Israel and the Palestinians across the Gaza border. Militants have fired barrages of homemade rockets at Israel, and Israel has responded with artillery fire. A 17-year-old Palestinian in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya was killed Monday in the shelling, Palestinian officials said.
    The suicide bombing took place about 1:40 p.m. when the bomber, carrying a bag stuffed with 10 pounds of explosives, approached "The Mayor's Falafel" restaurant in a busy neighborhood near Tel Aviv's central bus station. The restaurant, which had been the target of a bombing in January, was packed with Israelis on vacation during the weeklong Passover holiday.
    A guard outside was checking the bomber's bag when the device exploded, police and witnesses said.
    "Suddenly there was a boom. The whole restaurant flew in the air," said Azi Otmazgo, 35, who was wounded on his hands, foot and head.
    The bomb, laced with nails and other projectiles, shattered car windshields, smashed windows of nearby buildings and blew away the restaurant's sign. Glass shards and blood splattered the ground. Police said the guard was torn in half by the blast.
    The explosion killed a woman standing near her husband and children, who were slightly wounded, said Israel Yaakov, another witness.
    "The father was traumatized. He went into shock. He ran to the children to gather them up, and the children were screaming, 'Mom! Mom!' and she wasn't answering, she was dead already," he said.
    The wounded were treated on sidewalks. One man was lying on his side, his shirt pushed up and his back covered by bandages. A bleeding woman was wheeled away on a stretcher.
    "Everything was a mess. Everything was blood. I saw half a body - I don't know if it was the terrorist or the guard," said a witness who gave his name as Bentzi.
    Police said nine civilians and the bomber were killed and dozens of others were wounded.
    The attack was the deadliest since a double suicide bombing on two buses in the southern city of Beersheba killed 16 people on Aug. 31, 2004. It was the second major Passover bombing in four years. An 2002 attack at a hotel in the coastal town of Netanya killed 29 people and triggered a major Israeli military offensive.
    Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir said the government held Hamas responsible for the attack because it is "giving support to all the other terrorist organizations."
    "From our point of view it doesn't matter if it comes from Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad or Hamas. They all come out of the same school of terrorism led by Hamas," Meir said.
    Hamas, responsible for dozens of suicide bombings in recent years, has largely observed a 16-month truce with Israel. Yet in a sharp departure from previous government's immediate condemnations of such attacks, Hamas leaders defended the bombing.
    "We think that this operation ... is a direct result of the policy of the occupation and the brutal aggression and siege committed against our people," said Khaled Abu Helal, spokesman for the Hamas-led Interior Ministry.
    The moderate Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of the rival Fatah party, condemned the bombing, and said he had ordered Palestinian security forces to prevent future attacks.
    Abbas is currently in a power struggle with Hamas, and it remains unclear who is ultimately in charge of the Palestinians' security forces.
    "These kinds of attacks harm the Palestinian interest, and we as an authority and government must move to stop it," Abbas said. "We will not stop pursuing anyone who carries out such attacks."
    Israeli President Moshe Katsav appealed to the Palestinians to reject violence.
    "I call on the Palestinians not to show weakness of spirit in the struggle for peace. We want to believe that the political path of the Hamas government is not the path of the Palestinians," he said.
    Islamic Jihad identified Monday's bomber as Samer Hammad, 21, from a village outside the West Bank town of Jenin.
    In a video released by the group, Hammad said the bombing was dedicated to the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. "There are many other bombers on the way," he said.
    Islamic Jihad was behind eight of the nine suicide bombings carried out since a Feb. 8, 2005, truce declaration.
    The group's exiled leader, Ramadan Shallah, said Sunday that its militants were making "nonstop efforts" to infiltrate suicide bombers into Israel.
    "The nonstop crackdown against our resistance might limit this effort, but it's not going to stop it," he said in a statement posted on the group's Web site. Shallah made his comments at an anti-Israel conference in Iran.
    The attack - and the Hamas refusal to condemn it - complicated efforts to raise money for the bankrupt Palestinian treasury. The Hamas government is two weeks behind on paying March salaries for the government's 140,000 workers.
    The U.S. and European Union cut off aid to the government because Hamas refused their demands to renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel also stopped transferring tens of millions of tax dollars it collects on the Palestinians' behalf every month.
    Hamas says it will turn to Muslim countries to make up its budget shortfall. Iran and Qatar have each pledged $50 million.
     
  2. XNine macrumors 68040

    XNine

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    #2
    Of course it's justified. They're not a part of our religion, therefor the enemy. Jihadists are a bunch of bitches with no real chivalry. Suicide bombs are a last attempt effort by cowards.
     
  3. Stella thread starter macrumors 604

    Stella

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    #3
    If the states were to become occupied, like Palestine is, I bet there would be a plenty of american Suicide Bombers. But, of course, because its the states, it would be justified in this scenario. :rolleyes:

    As the saying goes.. one persons terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

    Its not a black and white issue of being right or wrong, its far more complex.
     
  4. Airforce macrumors 6502a

    Airforce

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    #4
    :rolleyes:

    Pretty much.
     
  5. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #5
    airforce, if this country were invaded, would you resist?
     
  6. Airforce macrumors 6502a

    Airforce

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    #6
    Sure the hell would, but I wouldn't go to the country invading, head to one of their local malls, and blow myself up. That's just moronic.
     
  7. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #7
    what would you do? what if they raped and killed your children in front of you? flattened your home and beat you unconscious? what if it didn't just happen, but has been like this for 40 years?

    it's not open war, it's an occupation. you try to go to work, but every day they make you change the route. there's no gas, so sometimes you walk 3 miles to a checkpoint, only to discover you have to backtrack and then walk another 8. the soldiers laugh at you and ask if you're hungry. day in, day out. the electricity doesn't work. you collect rainwater because when the pipes do work, the water is rusty and full of bacteria. the soldiers take the best produce, and you and your neighbors fight over the remainders thrown in the dirt.

    where's your breaking point?
     
  8. Stella thread starter macrumors 604

    Stella

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    #8
    Each country has a 'tradition' ( can I say that / call it that? ) of methods that its people will defend.

    For western, its not suicide bombing, for eastern, this becomes more prevalent.

    To call Suicide Bombing 'Moronic' is small minded. Its from a different culture. Many people from the West, regard Eastern culture backwards / primitive, which really isn't the case. The West could do well in learning from the East ( Don't put words into my mouth - I'm talking about culture - not how to kill ).

    The East would regard Westerns being cowards for NOT giving their life via suicide to help a struggle. Again, who is to say they are wrong ( or right )?
     
  9. Airforce macrumors 6502a

    Airforce

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    #9
    See, I have this thing we like to call a brain with rational thoughts. Never would it come to the point of me thinking that blowing myself up would help solve anything. Jews would have died out a long time ago if they thought like the little brainwashed suicide bomber.
     
  10. Airforce macrumors 6502a

    Airforce

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    #10
    Small minded? Then call me small minded.

    Suicide bombing is a brainwashed morons way to his 72 virgins.
     
  11. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #11
    your failing isn't your assertion of rationality, but a lack of imagination. you have a breaking point, whether you'd like to think so or not.
     
  12. Stella thread starter macrumors 604

    Stella

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    #12
    You are quite welcome to your opinions of course... as I said, it comes down to culture... Nothing is black and white. Open your mind.

    I'm glad you like patronising people.
     
  13. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #13
    Since this thread has gone this way... Is that really the profile of a typical suicide bomber? Someone that's been crushed under a jack-boot for 40 years and finally sees no other recourse?

    Or are typical suicide bombers largely younger men who've been kept ignorant by their elders and condition with hopelessness and hatred until the point at which being a suicide bomber seems logical, appealing, and the only option?

    The former might have been true years ago, but I don't think it is today. Suicide bombing isn't a rare, desperate act anymore it's a common tactic. These aren't people sacrificing everything for what they believe in they are people throwing their lives away because they've been taught that throwing their lives away is the only way to make their existence meaningful.


    Lethal
     
  14. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #14
    i'd agree with that, and say it's analogous to disenfranchised kids in the US joining gangs. the only difference is cultural.
     
  15. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #15
    Viewed through a geopolitical balance-of-power prism, this action, if not justifiable, is at least understandable.

    On one hand you have Arabs rallying behind the concept of self-determination (or the past denial of), and the rejection of major western powers' influence in the region. Israel is a constant reminder of this legacy.

    What happened to Palestine was shameful. While a conflux of forces and circumstances made an Israeli State inevitable, the fact remains that Palestine was promised to the Arabs and that they had the legitimate right of soverignity over Palestine. That betrayal has colored Arab politics and attitudes towards the West ever since.

    This is reflected in the Iranian President's recent remarks concerning the truth of the Holocaust. In his speech, it is also notably mentioned that Iran would be fine with an Israeli homeland, but that it should be in Europe - a reflection of the fact that the Arab world had nothing to do with the Jewish lack of a homeland, and certainly nothing to do with Nazi Germany or the holocaust ( indeed most ME countries were aligned with the Aliies ) - those were European/Western problems which were foisted on an innocent Arab Nation - Palestine.

    Still, in many ways, Arabs have no special hatred of the Jews as a people, indeed many Jews lived (and still do) live in various ME countries. Relatedly, before the creation of Israel, the ME had excellent relations/attitudes towards the US, and still have no special emnity towards America.

    What they do despise, however, is the interference these countries have/represent to their self-determination. Israel serves as both a concrete and visceral reminder of the projection of Western Power and as a proxy for dislike for American intervention - as the US is too distant and powerful to engage directly.

    Iran, which is not Arab, still finds the same utility in combating US/Western hegemonic interests in the region by using Israel as a proxy target. Iran has the second-largest contingent of Jews in the ME. Persian history has a large Jewish component. Still, as an aspiring regional power, Iran has an interest in combating Western/US influence in the ME, and can accomplish that by forming alliances with Arab groups/countries.

    As for Hamas, now that it has moved into the political mainstream, it will be forced to modulate it's violent policies as it participates in the Democratic process. For the US, Hamas can no longer be dismissed as a mere "movement", and will have to be engaged as a legitimately elected participant in the political realm. This will probably be uncomfortable for the US, as it requires a rethinking of policy. You can see the resistance to this course of action by labeling Hamas as a terrorist organization. This ignores the fact that many terrorist organizations have grown into legitimate, peaceful parties.

    Hamas, as a legitimate political party, now is a much more attractive target for aid and support by Iran and all ME countries, and the fate of Palestine is much more closely watched by these same countries. The denial of foreign funding to Hamas by the West is probably a mistake in this light, as ME countries and Islamic/Arab International organizations will rally around Palestine as a matter of both pragmatism and principle.

    The bombing itself, and it's defense by Hamas, seems like a calculated matter of political strategy. By shoring up Arab anti-Israeli/Western sentiment, it has guaranteed itself funding from Arab Nations, while at the same time painting it's internal rival, Fatah, as ineffectual and perhaps even pro-western.

    Terrorism is just a tactic, and the continued use, of threat thereof, by Hamas, or Iran, is merely part of a calculated, albeit loose, strategy of altering the power structure to the Arab/ME favor - by what tools they have at their disposal.

    Israel is here to stay, a fact even Hamas has admitted to. The rhetoric and violence on both sides is based not on ethnic or religious hatred, but on power - and who has it. Duh.

    Oh, an lest we forget, before Israel was a stable entity, it had terrorist organizations of it's own, fighting a more powerful foe - Britain, while sniping at Arabs, because it felt it was denied it's rightful self-determination (in this case continued/accelerated Jewish immigration).
     
  16. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #16
    I think it's more than simple lack of imagination. I think it's two parts inability to empathize, one part arrogance and a dash of grandstanding.
     
  17. tristan macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    No its not.

    Freedom fighters attack government and military targets. Terrorists attack civilians. Violence against non-combatants is never morally justified.
     
  18. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #18
    Then why do the newsmedia and government refer to a suicide bomber who blows up an Iraqi police station as a terrorist?

    I would say Stella was correct about his statement. The tag of "terrorist" gets thrown around haphazardly these days. Most people no longer make the distinctions that you do because of that.
     
  19. XNine macrumors 68040

    XNine

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    #19
    Sorry, but again we come full circle to the Rules of War. And that's what it comes down to. Should America be invaded by an enemy and they try to over-turn us, then you're damn right I would fight. But I would FIGHT, not kill myself along with a bunch of innocent people at a cafe or a bus stop. I would grab a shotgun and some rifles and start going to town on their MILITARY, not their civilians.

    Suicide bombing is a desperate act. Much like when teens go into chat rooms and proclaim "I'm going to kill myself." It's a cry for attention for their side. "Stop ignoring us! Look at me! Look at me!" The people who do it are brainwashed by religious and political leaders into believing that they'll have a ton of virigins awaiting them in heaven. I wonder what all those dumbasses are thinking when they get to the other side and it's just a giant black void?

    And as to this war going on for 40 years? Try more than 2000. The Jews and Arabs have been at each other's throats for a long, long time, and the fight will never end. It's like two bitter, bickering families that retaliate for everything.

    Someone needs to deliver a giant spanking to both of them to tell them to **** and play nice.
     
  20. Stella thread starter macrumors 604

    Stella

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    #20
    Suicide bombing is a desperate act in *your* view... in the eyes of the Mid-East Suicide bomber, it isn't, its something else. Who is to say you are correct in your view. Again, its not black and white.

    You can say they are brain washed. However in reality, you ( and every one else ) are brain-washed by their governments - just in this case, you haven't been brain washed by religion, but by other elements.

    > Someone needs to deliver a giant spanking to both of them to tell them to **** and play nice
    Not just both, but to ALL parties, including the world - get talking, stop throwing threats around.

    As a previous poster said, if you've been in their position for many years, you just may be ready to go into a Suicide Mission...

     
  21. nbs2 macrumors 68030

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    #21
    The failure in trying to make a distinction here is that you have two very different cultures. Remember that many of these "despondant" young men have grown up in a society where the government rules with an iron fist. If you don't agree with them, you shut your mouth and pretend you do - eventually you will learn to suppress those feelings. Civilians and government are not the same. The Western victims, on the other hand, have dynamic governments where the government is of, for, and by the people. The people make their government. While it may be possible for a more educated individual to make that distinction, many of these men do noe have an education - and will never be able to afford one. They see TV depicting the American, British, Israeli, etc elections - where the supreme leaders of Bush, Blair, Sharon, etc. are chosen by the people. Popular vote and electoral vote is irrelevant. The people are the government. If the government is choosing to oppress, then the people who vote for the government are showing their support. They have now crossed the line from civilian living under the rule of another to part of the government. They are now targets.

    Then you have to realize that much of the war against the West and Israel is not a "we need to bring the world to Islam jihad." Under Islamic law, that jihad has very strict rules as revealed by Allah in the Koran. It is a jihad of faith and charity. The jihad of "people have invaded and occupied the land of Islam" is much more severe. By stationing troops in SA, by carving land away from the Palestinians to give to the Israelis because we felt bad about Hitler's issues, and most importantly - by continuing to seduce the youth and people of Islam with our culture, we are invaders. When repelling an invasion, permitted tactics are much more broad. Sometimes a sacrifice of the few is required to stop the shedidng of blood of the many.

    I think that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were esential in the saving of many lives - both American and Japanese. I don't believe that the Japanese would have surrendered until they were down to their last man, had we continued traditional warfare. They were (and are) a very determined people. A powerful show of indiscriminate force was needed. While I personally believe that the moral high ground rests with those who only go after military targets (I support the use of suicide bombers against checkpoints or other military targets), but both sides in this conflict have killed civilians. Just as the Israelis live in fear, the Palestinians live in fear and squalor. There is no longer a moral high ground in this war.

    That being said, this situation disturbed me greatly at first. I was horrified the that the Hamas the government was condoning the violence agaist civilians. But, the angry rantings of early posters in this thread made me realize that Israel has doen the same thing. It isn't vigilante groups tearing down houses and killing children. It is the Israeli military. So, maybe, Hamas is right. But, blackfox is right. There is a new reality on the ground. By condeming the violence, I think that Hamas could have reestablished the moral highground - but that opprotunity has been wasted. Additionally, while the withdrawal by Israel is probably two-faced, it has been something. The two combined may slowly bring Israel back to a highground that they haven't seen in ages.

    My personal idea is the nuke the place and start over. To be nice, we could even pull all the people out, and after doing the deed, tell them that whoever wants it can have it.
     
  22. skunk macrumors G4

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    #22
    Until your last sentence, I found this a very rational and sensible assessment. I trust the last bit is tongue-in-cheek...;)
     
  23. Stella thread starter macrumors 604

    Stella

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    #23
    Good post, nbs2.

    Just your last point - if you did Nuke the place - it wouldn't be habitable for anyone...


     
  24. nbs2 macrumors 68030

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    #24
    That was my point. Sometimes I wonder if they will ever stop...It's like when I see two kids at the park fighting over a toy. While cruel, part of me wants to break the toy. If you can't get along and share, then nobody gets to play with it....So, I guess (or hope) it qualifies as tounge in cheek:)

    I might end up doing something similar when I have kids - if they can't learn to share, I'm sure that someone else will appreciate it more.
     
  25. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #25
    Murder isnt ever justified, walking into a place and killing whoever is around is just plane murder. Thou shalt not Kill.................................
     

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