Peace with Hamas impossible while there's a bomb under the table.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by dogbone, Jan 26, 2007.

  1. dogbone macrumors 68020

    dogbone

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    #1
    How can you negotiate with people who are killing you?

    Israel has been asking this for years, now Fatah is asking the same question.

    "How can the dialogue go on when there is a bomb underneath the table?" Reuters news agency quoted Fatah spokesman Tawfiq Abu Khoussa as saying.

    link
     
  2. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #2
    What point are you trying to make here? :confused:
    Quoting one side of the story does not help.
     
  3. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #3
    So Israel makes a deal with Hamas, terrific then the next terror group comes along and again the problem continues. PLO,Hamas,Hezbolla who's next? How do you cut deals when the people you are dealing with want you dead? This is Israel's problem. Its dealing with all these groups who have a fanatical religion as the base of their society. Who's next?
     
  4. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    Pot=Kettle.
     
  5. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #5
    Who's the next terror group skunk? you know theres another waiting in line.
     
  6. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #6
    Islam is no more fanatical a religion than is Judaism or Christianity. There is, however, an almost inexhaustible source of aggrieved Muslims. Without addressing this problem, it's like chopping heads off the Hydra.
     
  7. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #7
    I agree with some of that but look at the palestians at the moment, you have 1 hate group fighting another. Rule of Law,Democracy has little meaning to this society. I wonder how long before Fatah & Hamas engage in a full scale war?
     
  8. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #8
    The nature of negotiations during times of war is to negotiate with people who are trying to kill you. The only reason to raise this as an objection to negotiations is to stop negotiations from taking place or to put out the false propaganda that only one side is seeking to kill the other - or both.
     
  9. dogbone thread starter macrumors 68020

    dogbone

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    #9
    The point is obvious. That is what hope is there for Israel to come to any sort of understanding with Hamas when Hamas and Fatah, (supposedly on the same side) cannot trust each other and deal with their grievances with bombs, machine guns and murder of their own innocent civillians?
     
  10. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #10
    Hmm... How can you negotiate with people who are killing you? I don't know, ask the Japanese how they managed?

    Or the IRA. It's been done before.
     
  11. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #11
    Im willing to bet a years salary that if Israel laid down its weapons the attacks againced them would continue...

    I wouldnt be willing to do the same bet the other way around.
     
  12. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #12
    Flawed arguement the Israelis happen to inhabiting a bit of the world that was NOT theirs only a short time ago and during their conquest of this bit of countryside they forced lots of people out of their homes.

    So as long as the refugees continue to feel wronged and others continue to side with them no end is in sight.
     
  13. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #13
    Yes, they need to work out their differences.

    But how do you work with people who are trying to kill you?

    And the cycle continues.....:rolleyes:
     
  14. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #14
    Israel is holding several thousand Palestinian prisoners, and is effectively occupying a huge swathe of Palestinian territory. Are you also assuming this would no longer apply, and that all confiscated lands would be returned? The playing field is nothing like level.
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    So a safe bet would also be that if the Palestinians laid down their arms that their lands would still be occupied and their comrades still in prison?
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    I believe you catch my drift.
     
  17. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #17
    I agree it's a vicious cycle, I was saying that if those attacking Israel were to lay down their weapons the fighting probably would end because Israel has already acomplished its goals, but the same cant be said for the exiled Palestinians.

    ^^
    basically what they just said
     
  18. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #18
    Where exactly on the map was the kingdom of David and Soloman before the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt? Where did they return to after they were freed from Egypt? Seems to me a long time before 1948.

    Here's the borders as I've studied them. Note to the size of the area controlled by the Philistines and the Phoenicians.

    http://encarta.msn.com/media_461532970/Kingdom_of_Israel.html
     
  19. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #19
    And most Palestinians believe they are the descendant of the Canaanites, who pre-date the Kingdoms of David and Soloman as well as Moses. If you can find someone who can really trace their ancestors back to these times they might have a claim on a piece of land. Truth is most folks, on both sides, have no such ancient claims in their families. Instead, what is used is a religious claim to the land. Works if you believe in a particular god and believe he handed out land deeds, but otherwise isn't much of a basis to say which land belongs to whom. We used the same idea, calling it "manifest destiny," to rob the Native Americans of their land. It's about time to stop using God as an excuse for aggression.
     
  20. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #20
    So, you're saying that a claim to land 3,000 years ago has more presidence than 100 years? Somehow, I think the French would be less than excited if the Italians tried to use the same logic, or imagine the reaction if Mexico tried to seize Texas with the same idea.
     
  21. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #21
    You talking about recreating the Ottoman empire? I guess it all depends on how far people want to unwind what's been done. Since Israel was created and is now history (even more recent than 100 years!) and the Palestineans are welcome to the land they currently are on, sound like everyone should just concern themselves with the plot of dirt they're living on.
     
  22. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #22
    Good idea. What does everybody think is going to happen? Israel just pack up and say "hey, sorry, we're gunna take off now. please forward our mail to Baja, Mexico, we bought it from the Mexicans and we're starting up a tourism enterprise."

    The entire argument of "who was where first" is completely pointless.
     
  23. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #23
    No, what I am saying is that negotiations are impossible because the Palestinians wont stop stabbing Israel in the eye long enough to negotiate anything.

    Continuing down the eye for an eye path you are running with has never solved anything. How far do you want to go back?

    Laying down arms on both sides and creating an atmosphere where real discussion is possible will.

    It dont believe the Palestinians are capable of this.
     
  24. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #24
    Do you honestly believe the Palestinians under Israeli rule, to use your colorful phrase, haven't been "stabbed in the eye" every day for the last 60 years? The idea that this is all because of Palestinian violence that is somehow inherent in the Palestinian character is not only offensive and untrue, but shows how deep one can buy into delusional thinking. The violence is pushed on both sides for a political agenda. You may agree with the agenda of one side and not see anything of value in the other's viewpoint, but don't distort history to justify the delusion.
     
  25. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #25
    Havent you ever seen Bowling for Columbine? Michael Moore makes the case that America is a violent nation by contrasting murder rates in Detroit and across the river in Windsor. He's making a case against the American Character. So who's delusional? The Palestinians as of today broke a nine month cease fire by killing three Israelis in Eilat. Now these are extremists, not joe sixpack palestinian. However joe sixpack palestinian voted in Hamas into power in their elections. So what does that tell you that the people voted an extremist government into power? Does it seem soooo unreasonable to you that the Palestinian people may be more violent than others?
     

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