Pentagon weighs border deployment

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, May 12, 2006.

  1. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #1
    link

    well, i guess the manufactured crisis is moving beyond the rhetoric stage. is it really fair to stretch the national guard even more?
     
  2. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #2
    I guess these ****s hold Posse Comitatus in the same esteem they hold the Constitution.
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #3
    IIRC, Posse Comitatus does not apply to the NG. Remember, the NG is regularly deployed within the US - or at least they were until many of them were sent overseas.

    This is an attempt by Bush to change the subject from scandal and NSA wiretapping, and to rally his base with some nice juicy red meat. Notably, Bush has resisted this idea (same with messing with the Strategic Petroleum Reserve) until his poll numbers have gone into the tank. Oddly, it's not a bad idea (again, similar to the SPR), but his big-business cronies have let it be known that they don't want their cheap labor force reduced. So he's finally willing to give it a try in order to staunch the flow of conservative support and for no other reason. Pure partisan politics.

    It's the only thing this WH knows.
     
  4. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #4
    Bush could have done this 10 million Mexicans ago. He is such a sorry sorry President.
     
  5. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #5
    he did this instead (link):
     
  6. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #6
    Maybe the NG guys will do better than the marines that killed that kid up at Redford, a few years back. They were part of JTF-6, that trained the ATF agents for Waco. Probably be some fear and loathing in the area around Presidio, Texas.

    I don't know how many of you have ever been to or seen pictures of the canyon country along the Rio Grande. Folks have been smuggling across those reaches for centuries. I guess it's a numbers game, though, given that the majority of border jumpers are in Arizona and California. Along the Texas part of the border, there's just a steady trickle in the canyon country, but the numbers are around the cities. (El Paso, Del Rio, Laredo, Brownsville.)

    Only a combination of two things will reduce the incentive for Mexicans to come to the US: First, some sort of serious change in the internals of that country, so jobs can be created with decent wages and people don't live in poverty or face slow starvation in so many areas. Their form of Socialism just flat doesn't work. Next, a crackdown on US employers of illegals; no jobs, no impetus to come here.

    Nasty situation...

    'Rat
     
  7. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    It's not a question of whether it's "Socialism" (what a pejorative word that is, eh?) or not. Mexico has been screwed for years.
     
  8. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #8
    The one thing I hold against Clinton is NAFTA, the concept was sound but in the end special interests in the US and especially agribusiness totally screwed Mexico over.

    Had bushco not decided to ignore Vicente Fox and his attempts to change the culture of corruption in Mexico, there's a good chance that fewer people would be coming north.

    Unfortunately, these are only two of an almost endless line of US Presidents that have ignored our southern neighbors and now we're paying the price for that ignorance. Ignoring the problem during the good years only means paying a higher price later on. We're not the only ones paying though, Germany, France, Italy and the UK amongst others are in the same boat.

    Two things need to happen in Mexico: Better access to birth control to lower the birthrate (ain't gonna happen under bush) and better jobs south of the border. Bush isn't going to win any votes for the repubs with that one so he'd rather break out the weapons and start shooting like Airforce advocated (what happened to him by the way?)
     
  9. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #9
    I am just not sure what effect militarizing the border will have. It may slow the tide of illega immigration enough to give the illusion of fixing the problem (ie political victory), but unless the root causes are addressed - it is an impossible problem to fix.

    Sice there is obvious demand for illegal immigration on both sides of the border, there is always going to be the incentive to exploit that demand. People are ingenious - if you stop one vector, another will spring up. There has been illegal people smuggling through shipping containers for example.

    If drugs can make it through, so can people. Funnily enough, the more difficult it is made to pursue easier/legal vectors of immigration, the more those immigrants will suffer and the more money those who exploit them will make - effectively institutionalizing a black-market solution.
     
  10. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #10
    Pardon my cynicism, but I've long believed that giving the appearance of "We're doing something!" is more important than accomplishment.

    Well, Mexico has long declared itself to be Socialist or follow Socialist ideals. Their words, not mine.

    I'm not interested in knocking Catholicism, but the position on birth control has, in Central and South America, generally produced people faster than jobs. I was told on a business trip to Mexico City in 1978 that the population of Mexico City was equal to the total population of the entire country at the time of the 1910 revolution: 17 million. And Mexico City was said to be growing at a rate of a Dallas a year--some 600,000 people in Dallas at that time.

    In 1985 a kid from mexico City told me that there was plenty of work there, but a day's work wouldn't yield the money for a day's food.

    On Fox News, today, an interview with a well-educated school-teacher lady illegal had her explaining that jobs were scarce and pay was poor.

    As far as corruption, I'm not sure that Terence Pappa's view would be changed: The Drug Lords didn't corrupt Mexico; the Drug Lords are cash cows, being sold protection by the ruling claque. I dunno. (Terence Pappa is author of "The Drug Lord", a biography of Manuel Acosta. He lived in Mexico for many years, as a journalist.)

    'Rat
     
  11. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #11
    Wow.

    Must digest before further comment.
     
  12. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #12
    b'fox -- i believe he meant that he believes that's the M.O. of washington, not a belief to which he personally subscribes.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    I must say I assumed that was a typo...
     
  14. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #14
    ahhh...

    'rat, I must say that this opinion puts some of your comments regarding current government policy (aka NSA wiretapping) in an interesting light.

    How do you reconcile this cynicism with what I perceive to be your opinion that the government should be given the benefit-of-the-doubt in the NSA matter?

    If my perceptions are in error, I apologize.
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    I hope this is some kind of joke...
     
  16. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #16
    That's pretty much the modus operandi of WA, the point I believe 'Rat was trying to make. The fact that immigration is supposedly such a hot button issue all the sudden :cough: distraction :cough: yet they cut funding for border guards and send those who should be dealing with it (and local disasters) overseas should be telling people something.

    Though with a ~30% approval rating, people do seem to be paying more attention to the endless mistakes.
     
  17. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #17
    Sounds more like America every day. Unless you're one of the GOP's beloved "haves or have-mores".
     
  18. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #18
    mac, the NSA may or may not have done Bad Things, depending on interpretation of the law. Until there's a resolution of the legal arguments, it's reasonable to give some benefit of doubt. That's not the same as excusing, or as justification. It's merely "wait and see". It's a case where your opinion or my opinion is meaningless to the final outcome, even were you and I 100% in agreement.

    Giving the appearance of "We're doing something!" is exemplified by such idiocies as the so-called Assault Weapons Ban, where the perception exceeded the reality by several orders of magnitude--as history has proved. All it did was bring aesthetics and cosmetics into the arena of firearms law--which was predicted before passage.

    Anyway, that's the way I see the posturing of all the yawp about Immigration Reform. It's a reprise of 1986, which accomplished nothing but an increase of illegal border jumping. No different, really, from all the posturing of Campaign Finance Reform.

    Smoke and mirrors, spin and press releases, "...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

    But whenever it's over and done with, various Congressfolks will talk proudly and others will complain: My money is on the idea that nothing will really change for the better over the long haul, and I'm dubious even about the short term.

    Some say a cynic is merely observant. :D

    But, our system is the only one we have, so we gotta keep on keeping on. The deal with politics is that you gotta figure out how to keep a full belly on half a loaf. :)

    pseudobrit, you dang betcha I'm a have. I busted my tail for quite a few decades to get here. I have the scar tissue to show for it. I learned that the harder or more I worked, the luckier I got. And no brie, no Volvos. My BMWs ran fine, after I rebuilt the motors on below-bank-loan acquisitions. Need some work? I'm waiting on parts for my grader and my dumptruck, to get them back in action. You can weld up the lip on the loader bucket of my backhoe, if ya wanna. The weather's been great for outdoor work; hasn't broken 105, yet. :D

    'Rat
     
  19. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #19
    ahh, here's the reason for the deployment.

     
  20. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #20
    That's a pretty defeatist attitude, and pretty much why we're stuck with the system we have. And why it's been getting worse. And it is getting worse. I know you feel like there's nothing you can do, I feel that way too sometimes, but you're acting as if it's ok. I find it funny that you think we have to wait and see when it comes to something that's already been proven true (Google search if you still aren't sure of the details) and despite the fact that we probably never really will know all the details if people had the same attitude you do (which sadly they seem to), when having a wait and see attitude is what got us into this mess in the first place. Had we attempted to nip things in the bud, it would have never gone this far.

    Instead we gave them more power, didn't seem to care when they abused it, and then wonder why they're abusing it even more now.
     
  21. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #21
    "That's a pretty defeatist attitude, and pretty much why we're stuck with the system we have."

    No, solvs. The system we have is a tripod of separation of powers: SCOTUS, the Presidency and the Congress. The Congress in particular must balance among competing interests, and thus there are multitudes of "half a loaf" measures enacted into law.

    Trouble compounds when there is emoting and spin aimed at re-election and about all that appears in the way of legislation is the occasional heel--which mgiht well be stale.

    But that's what people do. Always have, always will. Politics is an art, well-known as the "Art of the possible". Cajole, wheel, deal, and get the best deal you can for your view, always knowing that you're only gonna get part of what you want. Compromise with competing interests, which interests have as much right as you to be heard.

    'Rat
     
  22. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #22
    Compromise? What compromise? I don't know about you, but I don't see a lot of compromise unless you count the Dems who do nothing. Last I checked, we have a Pres who thinks he's above the law and a Congress who seems to let him get away with it, then is surprised when they have a disagreement and he goes his own way anyway. Don't get me started on the SCOTUS.

    I agree that this is all showboating, but we shouldn't accept half a loaf because then that's all we'll ever get. And eventually, we'll get even less. Which we seem to be. The least you could do is get a little frustrated. Squeaky wheel and all. Not saying anything gets accomplished by complaining necessarily, but acquiescing certainly isn't going to get us anywhere. For the record, this has nothing to do with what I want, this is about doing the right thing. NSA spying without warrants wasn't right. Cutting funding for the Border Guard then trying to talk up securing the border bothers me too. For those who really care about this country, you'd think they'd feel the same way.
     
  23. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #23
    Doesn't really work that way anymore. Must've been nice, though.
     
  24. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    Looks like Bush is going to put a token force of the National Guard on the Border but they wont be allowed to arrest anyone? what the heck is this clown doing. Ill be watching his speech very close tonight and if he spews more talking points & spin ill will urge everyone in my family of republicans to vote them all out of office. He has taken 5 years to do near nothing but talk. The border should have been secured the day after 911 not 5 years later if we really have a war on terror.
     
  25. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #25
    Why wait? :p
     

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