planes will start flying closer on the 20th

Discussion in 'Community' started by stubeeef, Jan 13, 2005.

  1. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #1
    link On the 20th RVSM takes effect in the Domestic Airspace (lower 48) and some coastal areas.

    This has huge impications for pilots/faa/airlines. It is supposed to allow airplanes above 29,000' to 41,000' to fly at altitudes 1000' apart, it has been 2000' seperation vertically.

    This type airspace has been in effect in Europe and some oceanic areas for sometime, but just coming to the US as of jan 20th.

    It may be a small hiccup at the get go, so those of you flying on the 20th (me included) beware of possible delays.
     
  2. jsw Moderator emeritus

    jsw

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Location:
    Andover, MA
    #2
    I hope that this is a successful first step en route to a more intelligent use of our airspace. Fuel and time would both be saved if jets were allowed to fly more directly between locations; I've heard rumors that might be coming in a few more years.
     
  3. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #3
    It took somewhat longer to get here for a varity of issues, like fleet size-US has a lot of planes; equipment changes, there are a lot of planes that need upgrading to better/digital equip; crew training.

    There are a lot of implications to consider such as MWA-mountain wave activity (when airplanes seem to be on a small rollercoaster-the problem is a plane can often climb or descend 200' in the peeks and valleys, then a lot of airplanes get close together which can cause another problem called an RA - resolution advisory. Airplanes are equiped with TCAS II (terminal collision avoidance system) which lets each pilot know when another is close, it will also tell you to turn and/or climb and descend if it thinks 2 or more planes are on a collision course. So now in rough air or MWA's TCAS may give you a RA causing a ripple effect....

    Also the tolerance on these ADC's (air data computers) is so tight now, that if yours goes out of tolerance while in the airspace, you need to get out and either up to FL (flight level) 430 (43,000') or below FL 290. If you have to descend then fuel becomes an issues cause lower altitudes are often less effecient for todays jets (yesterdays too). So at the beginning of this new airspace a lot of planes and crews will not be qualified yet, so everyone will be fighting for space in the mid 20,000' range, meaning very crowded, and wait your turn. So all told it could be a slower than normal day to fly.
     
  4. bubbamac macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    #4
    There are procedures in place for equipment failures, mountain wave, etc...

    The airlines are ready for RVSM, and are by far the largest users of the high altitude structure. The users that aren't ready will be so few that it shouldn't matter. Remember, the vast majority of users will be using the RVSM airspace, without delays.

    Don't look for fewer delays at major airports. The problem isn't getting to the airport, it's a lack of concrete.
     
  5. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #5
    the delay won't be because of the airlines, but maybe some initial hiccups from faa, I know some guys that have already been given FL400 (over land in Maine) but it will be interesting to see how many people find problems with their equipment that they haven't been noticing (usually us corp types). Our jet has had some ADC problems and will not be ready, I get to do a NC-CA run at FL280 on the 20th, yea!

    I have flown DC-10s worldwide, lots of N ATL, the problem with the procedures is that they have not been used by most US pilots, airline as well as controllers, so there MIGHT, be a hiccup or two early on.

    It sounds as though you are ready, enjoy.
     
  6. stcanard macrumors 65816

    stcanard

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2003
    Location:
    Vancouver
    #6
    It's going to be a long time yet before you get to fly great circle between points.

    Although the planes are technically capable of it, by regulation they aren't allowed to navigate solely by GPS because the US Military can throw the switch any time and turn it off (that may have changed, my ATC experience is a few years old).

    Then, even if the planes are capable of doing it, the FAA has repeatedly failed miserably in it's attempts to upgrade the ATC system itself, and it is simply not capable of handling flights like that. Last I knew (6 years ago) there were still PDP-11's in active service in some of the major centres.

    Reminds me of a comment I heard a few years ago "Airspace is so incredibly huge, and planes so small, that the odds of any two being in the same place at the same time is incredibly small. So air traffic control was created to constrain the planes into very narrowly defined routes, thus greatly increasing the chances of that kind of collision".
     
  7. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #7
    I forgot about that, if I remember right isn't called FREEFLIGHT?
     
  8. bubbamac macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    #8
    We routinely go coast to coast at FL280, sometimes FL260 (usually westbound) due to the winds and on time performance, sometimes the rides. Yea, it's, um, fun. Actually, it's just loud. I don't mind, as long as it gets the people what they want (smooth, on time). I try to save fuel if I can, but frequently it's more fuel efficient to go lower and stay out of the wind.

    Boy, this really isn't the forum for this, is it?

    Re: the GPS comment. While we can't usually file GPS direct, it's not uncommon for us to recieve a clearance direct to a fix 1200 miles (or more) away. The computer figures the great circle route, and off we go!

    Oddly, sometimes it's worse to take the direct, depending on the winds and rides. Gotta be careful accepting those.
     
  9. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #9
    coming out of BUR on the 21st going to NC would normally be a FL410 trip for me, 1 leg. Because I will be at FL270ish It will take me 2 legs and add 1 hour of flt time and 1300# jetA.

    Out west I can get 800nm directs, and late nite the 1200nm directs too.

    I think he might have been refering to freeflight, I haven't bothered to read up on its progress lately.

    This forum is fine, nearly 160 views, mac users fly too! I think it was Baron58 that was interested in starting a forum for pilots. on that subj, have any pilots tried LOG TEN log book software for OSX? I played with it the other day and was thinking of putting up the $ to start doing my logs on the PB.
     
  10. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    #10
    stubeef, there may be other delays in the Mid-Atlantic area as well with the Inauguration that day. May have a ripple effect as well. Surprised that the FAA decided to roll it out on that day. :eek:

    I love topics like this coming up. We are a very diverse group. I love most anything to do with aviation. In fact I got up to 2 or so hours in a 150 so many years ago. Just could not afford to keep it up.

    Thanks for the heads up.
     
  11. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #11
    Thanks about the inaug thing happening at same time, I forgot about that! Taveling N-S on the east coast will be more disrupted by that than anything else.
     
  12. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    #12
    I would assume that E-W flights that come close to the Mid-Atlantic area may be affected. Either that or we may see more flights diverted to other "skyways" to avoid unneeded traffic close to the events.
     
  13. stcanard macrumors 65816

    stcanard

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2003
    Location:
    Vancouver
    #13
    Last I knew the 2 flight level seperation was due to inaccuracies in the barometer calculating altitude at those altitudes.

    Do you know if only requiring one flight level seperation is a reflection that they've realized planes can calculate altitutde more accurately now, or is this pure economics to make better use of airways?

    Flying Vancouver to Toronto (or vice versa) ignore the jet stream at your own risk!
     
  14. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #14
    I believe the tightning is that instruments allow it, and therefore lets us it to improve the economics.
     
  15. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    #15
    Hey stubeeef, how did it go for you and your fellow pilots today?
     

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