Pledge of Allegiance Illegal?

Discussion in 'Community' started by coolocity, Jun 27, 2002.

  1. coolocity macrumors regular

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    #1
    What do you guys think of this seperation of church & state issue? I don't have a problem with kids saying the pledge in school. However, I don't think it should be forced upon them. I've seen many teachers force children to stand and recite the pledge. I think it should be a matter of choice. Athiests should be able to show patriatism without referencing to god. It's their 'god given right' hehehe. :p
     
  2. eyelikeart Moderator emeritus

    eyelikeart

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    #2
    I think this is what's wrong with our country. We have way too many laws "protecting" the livelihood of us and way too many liberties. It's no wonder why there is so much segregation between social groups.

    When u start picking apart everything that goes on here, it's going to only create conflict. I think this whole "freedom of speach" bit has gone way over the line. It's ironic how the laws created to protect us are the exact same ones that end up biting us in the ass...:rolleyes:
     
  3. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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    #3
    Pledge is Legal

    Reciting the pledge is legal, forcing it is not.

    What is also illegal, is the 1954 Congressional Act to put "Under God" in the Pledge. That Congressional act defies the 1st Amendment.

    It was a direct action by the Congress at that time to prove that we were not Godless Commies. They used Public Opinion to make that bill pass, not the law.

    BTW:
    Anybody remember a little catch phrase that the Republicans like use: "Rule of Law":D
     
  4. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #4
    this crap is so ludicrious its going to be turned down in a heartbeat.

    its just one of those things that those people who are bothered by it should just let it slide. live with it ...come on.
     
  5. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #5
    Re: Pledge is Legal

    Rule of Law. Yea, I remember it. It is what this whole point is about. The most liberal court in the country basically gave the finger to us all. They don't care about family values, and the things that are important to the majority of Americans.

    The 54 Congressional Act doesn't violate the 1st ammendment. The 1st ammendment was created so that you could speak out against your governmnet and not be executed for it. It has been basardized into a soap box for the minority in the country. If we pray at a high school football game, aw, sorry, can't do that it violates an athiests 1st ammendment right. BS! He is violating my right of self choice. He is violating the right of the majority. It is crap, and political correctness run amuck.

    To all the people out there that agree with the ruling. Watch the beginning of the NASCAR race this weekend. Not only do they say a prayer, but they invoke the name of God, and Jesus as his son. That, my friends will never change.
     
  6. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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    #6
    Majority Rules

    So, because most people accept this, we all should? Doesn't that also mean that since most people accept that polititions lie, we should have just accepted that in the case of Pres. Clinton, and moved on?

    Fact: The 1954 Congressional Act, was unconstitutional, in other words illegal, Accept that!
     
  7. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    #7
    Just replace word "God" with "Litigation" in the Pledge...

    And do it to the currency also "In Lawyers we Trust"

    Seems the lawyers have taken over anyway.

     
  8. eyelikeart Moderator emeritus

    eyelikeart

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    #8
    this whole thing reminds me of the women's movement wanting to rephrase the word "woman" because it has "man" within it...:rolleyes:
     
  9. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #9

    yep... just one of those things that you just have to let slide.... no use fighting about it.

    its stupid.
     
  10. Durandal7 macrumors 68040

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    Feb 24, 2001
    #10
    I read that the 9th circuit court that made this decision is the most overturned court in the country. Wonder why? :rolleyes:
     
  11. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #11
    yeah becuase the rule from thier opinion rather then the law.
     
  12. Royal Pineapple macrumors 65816

    Royal Pineapple

    #12
    i went to public grade school, where we were forsed to stand and recite the pledege of alegence, the term under god always bothered me, not so much that it seemed wrong for a patrotic thing, but just because i didnt feel that i neaded to bring up my personall religous affiliations in the classroom (i'm not atheist although i've been accused of it) presonally i feel that the phrase "under god" should be optional, i remember a Hindu kid who we had in the class who used to rephrase it "under gods".
    personally i didnt ever say the pledege because i felt that forsed alegance was a thing that i didnt want to deal with. my taecher used to kick me out of class because i was deemed "UnAmericain" because i refused to pledege my self to the united states of americia in school, flame me all you want but i never liked the pledege of alegaince.
     
  13. neut macrumors 68000

    neut

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    #13
    under who?

    my proposal:

    "one nation, under steve"

    and

    "in steve we trust"



    how ridiculous is that? or what about your name?

    i don't think any god would want thier name on greed and on a tainted pledge.


    when you believe in something because, "that's the way it's always been" or you, "just accept it and don't fight it" then we've already lost what being human is about (remember something called revolution?).


    think different forever...something i feel has been lost among the common mac user.





    teach thought — not acceptance
     
  14. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #14
    if i was a woman id be upset of all the injustices toward the woman but there are somethings that you just have to let go. if a man wants to open a door for you...sometimes its good just to let it happen rather than fighting it. just let him open the door for you...its not going to hurt anyone. some things are worth fighting for... and this one is not. it DIVIDES the country even more and thats the last thing we want for our country.... the terrorists would love it.
     
  15. Macmaniac macrumors 68040

    Macmaniac

    #15
    I think this nation has gotten carried away with Politacal Correctness, I like the pledge it helps me remember how lucky I am to be an American.
     
  16. PCUser macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    #16
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. " 1st Amendment (emphasis added)

    If you read the sentence strictly, that means Congress can not take sides that there even is a God. Which means it is unconstitional to have it in the pledge.

    Also, Backtothemac, your rights STOP when they meet others. Therefore, praying at a football game violates the athiest's right. His rights do not "violate" yours. He has the right to not pray, and you have the right to pray. When in conflict, you BOTH lose.

    (edit: actually, substitute school for football game there... a football game is technically private, and therefore you can do whatever they want about prayer, but in a school it is different)
     
  17. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    Chicago
    #17
    Re: Re: Pledge is Legal

    Gee, a conservative opinion expressed by B2TM! Hard to imagine. :D Of course, you know that I'm going to take the liberal opinion just to spite you, right??

    First, NASCAR has every right to sing the praises of God. They are a private organization. Government and the public schools on the other hand...

    The 1st ammendment was created to allow a person worship and believe anything they want to, not to allow a person to speak out against the government. Remember the whole state-sponsered religion thing over in merrry ole England?? Thats one of the principal reasons people came here in the first place.

    Finally, the most liberal court in the country didn't give us the finger, they gave us a correct ruling by following the constitution. Sure the majority of us think there is a God and that worshiping God results in good family values. But the fact remains that some of us do not believe in God, or in a single God.

    We are not a democracy by definition. We are a republic. In a democracy, majority rules--sometimes to the detriment of the minority. Our founding fathers made every attempt to setup a system of government where the rights of the minority COULD NOT BE TAKEN AWAY BY THE RULE OF THE MAJORITY. That is why the majority opinion on this topic should not matter. What matters is that the laws of our constitution are followed so that we may protect the rights of those who do not hold the popular belief.

    I think that worshipping God is a good thing. I personally believe in a higher power. But I do not think that we need to include the majority's deity in a state sponsered pledge, or in a a state sponsered school, or in anything sponsered by the state.

    We can all still worship whom ever we want. Lets just keep it out of the government. One of the great freedoms in this country is to worship whoever we like--or no one at all. Continuing to sponser a single religion's God starts us on a slippery slope towards the degredation of our right to choose who we worship.

    Don't let the majority's opinion and vigor in supporting it overtake you. Think about what is in the constitution and why its there. Think about the rights of a few and how our majority is affecting them.

    Taft
     
  18. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #18
    Re: Re: Pledge is Legal

    whilst i think you make some good points and i think i agree in general....

    i will never watch a nascar race.

    nor will my "wumyn".... ha!!!
     
  19. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #19
    PC User and Taft. Two seperate responses here.

    PCUser. The pledge doesn't establish a religion. The purpose of that part of the ammendment was due to the Church of England. Yea, there was a glorious history for you. Yea, my rights end where anothers begin, but you are wrong my friend. The freaks out there have made it so that you cannot say a non-denomiational prayer before a football game. They have changed the very foundation of our country. If I pray at school before lunch, how does that hurt the athiest. He has the right not to pray. But his personal crap of "it seperates me from everyone", or "they treat me different because I am an athiest", there fore they can't pray. CRAP! They are treated different because those people choose to treat them different. The same people that treat them different will do so once the day comes that they find out that they are an athiest. Seriously. Look at the laws first.

    Anyway, it doesn't invoke a religion, or establish one, therefore it is not unconstitutional. Just because someone is offended, that doesn't make it unconstitutional.

    Taft.
    I agree with you except that the "one nation under God" doesn't establish a religion, and if someone is offended, then they can choose not to say it.

    See, that is the thing. If my daughter prays before her meal at school she could be suspended. Yet, kids can dress like Marylin Manson, and wear next to nothing. The problem with the country is that so many people are focusing on stuff that doesn't matter.

    Oh, and PCUser, no, we both don't loose. It should be that if they choose not to, then that is fine. Why then can they dictate to me how to live my life because someone may or may not be offended! Think about how stupid that is. That is why I live in the south. This crap would never fly here.


    Oh, and Jello, I am going to kidnap you, hog tie you and make you watch a Nascar race in person. Of course, you will only be tied up during the race. Friday, and Saturday night we would all party till dawn. he.he. :D
     
  20. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #20
    I actually agree with you for the most part. What I have an objection to is state sponsered practice of religion. So while I don't want a school to organize prayer or sponser it, I have absolutely no objection to individuals practicing in school. In fact, I think they have the right to.

    But with the pledge of allegence, we are looking at a state-sponsered pledge. Congress expressly added a phrase to it that, IMO, violates the first ammendment. Sure, people should be able to add whatever they want to it (in the interest of both free speech and freedom of religion), but the government should not be promoting this or adding it to their own language. THAT is what I've got a problem with.

    And you're right, people are really making way to much of this. Its pretty minor and the fact that there is a controversy over this is nothing short of ridiculous. But since the "debate" has already broken out, I personally stand with the courts decision. I think it was the right decision by the constitution.

    Take the word 'God' out of the state sponsered version of the pledge. Then allow anyone to add whatever they want to it. Thats my stance. It allows personal freedom without any chance of religious alienation.

    Taft
     
  21. topicolo macrumors 68000

    topicolo

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    #21
    I definately don't think children should be forced to recite the pledge. I mean, what if someone's religion does not believe in one God? What if some child is hindu? It's not fair to them. Also, what about the children of foreign diplomats going to US schools? They're not US citizens and forcing them to pledge allegiance to the US is just wrong. I don't really care if the God word is removed, but I feel that the pledge should definately be optional.
     
  22. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #22
    Wow, you and I are agreeing on stuff. Man, someone call Guiness. Serioulsy though. Saying 'one nation under god' is not envoking or establishing a religion. All it is saying is that we are one nation in which the majority of people stand under a God. Be it Muslium, Christian, Jewish, it doesn't matter. What percentage of the people in the US are athiests? If it was 'one nation under the Church of American' then hell yea, you would be dead on right. The fact is that as long as it doesn't establish, or stop the establishment of a church then it is legal. The Constitution is pretty clear on this.

    If someone is offended by the 'under God' statement then they have the right not to say it without punishment. While the majority has the right to represent themsevles in the way in which they choose.
     
  23. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #23
    The pledge should be said at every school, every morning. So should the golden rule. People should let morals be taught so that people stop living like animals. The pledge, in my opinion, should be stated every morning, and if someone doesn't want to stand, then that is there right. But don't deny my child of their rights.
     
  24. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #24
    the pledge does not equal morals in my book, just national stuff.

    as for it being optional, it IS optional already tropicolo... the case was about whether it should be said at all, since the people who opt out may feel like outsiders..
     
  25. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #25
    Yea, the pledge is national you are right. The morals were in the other aspects that we were discussing here. You are also correct in that it is optional.

    To all those who choose not to and feel like they are outsiders, I say, tough. Suck it up and realize that you are an outsider, a minority. DEAL!
     

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