PM declares Quebec nation 'within Canada'

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by vniow, Nov 23, 2006.

  1. vniow macrumors G4

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    #1
    Hm. Interesting.

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/11/23/canada.quebec.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
     
  2. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #2
    This makes about as much sense to me as the people who fight over holy land. Isn't Quebec a province? Part of Canada in some ways, but also it's own state. Is it something in the details I'm missing?

    Seriously, perhaps someone could explain the issue, because I'd like to know what the big deal is.
     
  3. MacBoobsPro macrumors 603

    MacBoobsPro

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    #3
    How stupid can you get? This will just lead to more dispute.

    We should be trying to unite everyone not divide us all.

    One day when a race of superior Alien beings comes to kick our ass off this planet they will have no trouble at all because we stupid humans will be too busy bickering between nations and within nations themselves to form any kind of allegiance to fight back.

    We need to think of the future :D

    I saw some Aliens scoping out my place the other day.
     
  4. Queso macrumors G4

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    #4
    The Quebecois are looking for the same relationship with Canada as Catalunya has with Spain from what I see. It makes sense, and doesn't necessarily lead to the break up of the country. Most people in North America don't really get the concept of nationhood since virtually everybody is originally from elsewhere, but when your culture and language do stand out from the rest of the country, people feel it's important that protection for those things are enshrined into a constitution.
     
  5. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #5
    IIRC, Quebec has been operating in a sort of limbo since they rejected the last reworking of the federal constitution.

    Bloc Quebecois was pushing for a new referendum and Harper simply stole their thunder with a much more (ahem) conservative definition of "nationhood". Indeed, it seems like this definition is closer to what Nunavut got, or what American Indian tribes get.
     
  6. Graeme A macrumors 6502

    Graeme A

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    #6
    i always thought that Quebec was nothing more than Montreal. Do the rest of the province (outside of the 'burbs) think of themselves as anything more than Canadians?

    Then only Montreal should become the nation within Canada, otherwise leave it alone because we know that the French think of Quebec as some 3rd cousin who live in a ditch somewhere, similar to the gay community think of the T* community.
     
  7. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #7
    Quebec – including Montréal – seems very proud of its autonomy and its distinction from the rest of Canada. And there's a lot more to the Province of Quebec than just Montréal. It's pretty striking going from Ontario, where the road signs are bilingual, to Quebec, where they're nearly strictly French.
     
  8. Graeme A macrumors 6502

    Graeme A

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    #8
    My ignorance takes this vote result as Montréal voting yes as all the rest voting no - bear in mind QB is a HUGE province.

    My family (paternal grandmother) comes from Alberta and they do not see themselves as anymore as proud Canadians and my other friends from the area are all from the the English speaking parts (newfies or west coasters), so my points of reference are a little skewed.
     
  9. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #9
    I'm failing to understand exactly what you mean when you say "they do not see themselves as anymore as proud Canadians." Do you mean "don't see themselves as anything more than proud Canadians" or "don't see themselves as proud Canadians anymore"?
     
  10. Graeme A macrumors 6502

    Graeme A

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    #10
    Canadians only; not Albertans (?) then Canadians. That's the main jist of my comment. Quebecois appear to see themselves as Quebecois first, and Canadians second. My other point is where are their loyalties lying then; France just sees them as some distance cousin they acknowledge but never invite to parties (and this is from the mouths of French people when I lived in Paris).

    While I would hate to see Canada tear itself apart (I do think of it as one of the more together/mature nations in the world), and fear for what would happen to it if it allowed Les Quebecois to cede (can't think of the right word a.t.m. and reserve right to edit when I remember) from Canada.
     
  11. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #11
    Secede would be the word. I don't think full secession is good for Canada or Quebec, but I do think the sovereignty movement has allowed Quebec to assert considerable autonomy. I think it's closer to how US states functioned originally.

    I don't think anywhere there are Quebecois looking to ally themselves with France. They want independence, not a change of masters.
     
  12. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #12
    Have you been there?

    I'm more familiar with the area just north of Vermont but there's a very strong Quebecois identity there. If anything their French roots are even stronger than in Montreal.

    The few French that I've spoken too find the Quebecois drawl sort of sexy, depending upon the person who's drawling of course. But then most colonial accents are sort of funny sounding. What do the Brits think of yours? Can they tell the difference between an American and a Canadian accent. In my experience, few can. Unless y'all start ending your sentences with "Eh?" :D
     
  13. Ugg macrumors 68000

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    #13
    What brought you to Paris? Maybe the compulsory French lessons you had in school had something to do with it?!

    The hardcore separtist movement of the 70s has lost its impetus. Things have changed a lot in Quebec since then. Incomes have risen, the birth rate has dropped, education is better and fewer citoyens are willing to see Quebec turn into an impoverished cousin/brother/pal that nobody wants to play with. Total separation would be a disaster for everyone outside of those who put their culture above their ability to feed their children.

    Harper's a slime ball but I have to hand it to him on this one, he's keeping the separatists at bay without paying a huge financial or political price.

    If the separatists push too hard and the result is a financial backlash, the separatists will have had their last stand. They'd do well to take the olive branch gracefully.
     
  14. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #14
    I think defusing BQ could ultimately help undo any conservative movement in Canada. If there's no reason to vote BQ, it's safe to say to whom most of Quebec's seats will go.
     
  15. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

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    #15
    I agree with Ugg -- had to bite my tongue and say I agreed with how Harper handled it so far. (perhaps the first thing I have agreed with him on...)

    #1 it is definitely a strategic political move. It took the wind out of the BQ's sails and appears to have been masterfully timed. So of course it is manipulative, shrewd and calculated. And it happens to be good for the country.

    #2 Say what you want, there will always be a distinct Quebecois identity or 'nation' just as there are distinct First Nations, within Canada. To continue to deny is foolish and drives away our countrypeople both in spirit, and literally. To FINALLY officially recognize and embrace that our country does contain distinct and valuable cultures, lances a boil that has been festering for decades. And to do so framed within a strong statement about a united Canada is a positive and leader-like move.

    #3 Ultra nationalists -- it is foolish to say there isn't (or should not be) any such thing as a person who is Quebecois AND Canadian, or Metis AND Canadian, or Albertan AND Canadian, or Haida AND Canadian.
    Of course there is. And always will be.
     
  16. leekohler macrumors G5

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    #16
    I must say it makes me sad that Quebec would want to distance itself from such a great country. I will confess I know little about the subject, but I would love to retire to Montreal or Quebec City someday. Such beautiful places they are.
     
  17. bemylover macrumors regular

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    #17
    Serbian governmant offered something very similar to the separatists in Kosovo, but those guys don't seem to be very happy with such an offer.
     
  18. spicyapple macrumors 68000

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    #18
    The rest of Canada should just invade Quebec and put an end to this nonsense.
     
  19. Ugg macrumors 68000

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    #19
    Comparing Serbia/Kosovo with Canada/Quebec is like comparing apples to oranges.
     
  20. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #20
    Yes. Serbs make *awful* crème brulée! :D

    Wow, I don't know... I guess I have not been keeping up on Canadian politics well enough to have seen this coming.

    P.S. Any chance we can go back on our Civil War decision and kick the South out of the Union still? :)
     
  21. dornoforpyros macrumors 68040

    dornoforpyros

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    #21
    We'll steal the poutine and make it ours! haha

    In all seriousness I read a article or two about this on CBC.ca and it comes off like grade 8 students fighting over the what the name of the school mascot should be. First it's "A Nation Currently within Canada" then "A Nation within a united Canada" and so on. Seeing as it doesn't really seem to matter what the wording is, and this declaration doesn't seem to hold any legal water, I'm forced to aske, Why is the Government wasting time on a non-issue?

    Ok, fine Quebec is a nation, good for it, can we get on with important issues and stop wasting my tax dollars bickering like school kids?
     
  22. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

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    #22
    Yeah, here it's been approximately 250 years since opposing armies stopped bombing the *%$* out of cities.

    Because it won't go away unless it is addressed, and if left unaddressed it was threatening to be a wedge for the BQ that would consume a whole bunch more time and bickering.

    Yes, precisely.
     
  23. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #23
    Because so long as they keep it at the level it's at it's all semantics and an effective non-issue.

    If they don't address it now with silly things like how to phrase it, there's a possibility that BQ and PQ would force something more than nominal independence.
     
  24. bemylover macrumors regular

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    #24
    I am well aware about the differences in those two situations, nevertheless the outcome in Canadian case may be used as a precedent in other parts of the world.
     
  25. Ugg macrumors 68000

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    #25

    I doubt that as there are already dozens of precedents. Catalunya, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the South Tyrol in Italy, Istria in Croatia, Transylvania in Romania, Carinthia in Austria, Montenegro, etc, etc, etc.

    It's actually a topic I'm very interested in but there doesn't seem to be any definite trend nor any case of precedents in other countries influencing local issues. In Europe, the EU has been very influential in preventing regions from breaking away from the country they are contained in. I think it's best for everyone involved in the long run. Kosovo, however, isn't an easy problem to solve given recent Serbian aggression.

    Personally, I think Bosnia would be much better off if the Republic Srpska was peeled away from Bosnia and given to Serbia. The chance of any long term peace in Bosnia is hopeless without such a solution. While the forced expatriation of ethnic Germans from eastern Europe was a tragedy in many ways, it did prevent further conflict. Perhaps Bosnia would be better off if all Serbs were to be joined up with Serbia, just as Kosovo will be better off in the long run if it's an independent state.

    Quebec however, would be stupid to split away from Canada and as long as the majority of Quebecois are able to speak French and keep their customs, few would be willing to pay the price of independence. The fanatics have hopefully been appeased by Harper's stance on the issue.
     

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