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Oscartapia

macrumors member
Apr 6, 2009
30
0
Really?

E5-1650 - $550
2 Firepro D500 - $490 a piece ($980)
12 GB DDR3 1866 ECC - $180
Motherboard - $160
PSU - $90
256 GB SSD - $140

= $2,100~

Apple Mac Pro cost - $2,999

I don't even pay the prices mentioned above, anyone with Google does. I pay even less, probably $1,900. So $1,000 off. I didn't include a case or any 'innovation' though. :D

----------



"It is. Period.."

That's not how you make a point. If fitting already existing components into a smaller case is innovative to you then Apple has a fan for life and doesn't have to do much.

The retina displays are innovative. Touch ID as well. Motion co-processor. They are plenty innovative, but shrinking a tower is not new. They shrunk the iMac a while back if you heard. They shrink things all the time.

You are talking about "building something like a Mac Pro but cheaper. First: Your components don't match those from the Mac Pro, your processor , an ES -1650 is 3.2 G, and the one at the $2,999 Mac Pro is 3.7; you talk about 256gb SSD at $140, and yes, that's the price you can get that kind of memory... for mSATA; for PCI Express, the one the Mac Pro Uses, and much faster than mSATA is more expensive. You talk about a motherboard for $160, but... what kind of motherboard?? Because that's the part that will do the components, and the architecture to bring all the performance of the computer, and that price: 160, well, that's the price for motherboards that support i5, i7, but motherboards that support Ivy Bridge and can use thunderbolt are about double the price.
finally: yo make the math for those components, but... you're not even talking about the gabinet, the connectors, all the additional hardware you need to build the computer, and yes, there's been already comparisons between the Mac Pro and other servers that use the same processor and very similar configurations, and they are about the same price, some of them even more expensive and are bigger and even slower, so THERE'S the innovation factor for the Mac Pro: to have a good price-performance ratio and to be very small, silent and efficient. So no: it's not very easy to make a custom-made computer that will be similar in performance to a Mac Pro and will be cheaper.
 

Ryth

macrumors 68000
Apr 21, 2011
1,591
157
E5-1650 - $550
2 Firepro D500 - $490 a piece ($980)
12 GB DDR3 1866 ECC - $180
Motherboard - $160
PSU - $90
256 GB SSD - $140

= $2,100~

Apple Mac Pro cost - $2,999

I don't even pay the prices mentioned above, anyone with Google does. I pay even less, probably $1,900. So $1,000 off. I didn't include a case or any 'innovation' though. :D

----------



Um...spec for spec...what you are listing isn't even the same in the MP. You are also missing Thunderbolt for obvious reasons.
 

phrehdd

macrumors 601
Oct 25, 2008
4,313
1,311
OK, people saying the Mac Pro is not innovative need to shut up. It is. Period. It is unique in the market, nothing else is or has been, like it.

Whether or not you like the Mac Pro, or feel that Apple should have gone in a different direction, is another story.

This thing is powerful as hell, and while I'd rather had an updated "old" Mac Pro (both design and price-wise), I can see that Apple's target market would be happy. I am not in it, so it sucks to be me (kinda). :p

Wind tunnel technology - not innovative
Use of motherboard/daughterboard distribution - not innovative
All add ons external - can we say Mac Mini? - not innovative
Use of the designated video cards - not innovative
Use of proprietary cards - not innovative
Thunderbolt 2 - as innovative as USB 3.

Sorry nothing really other than the shape is innovative.

What we can agree upon is that it will have its audience and most likely lose some of the old Mac Pro audience/buyers.
 

wigby

macrumors 68030
Jun 7, 2007
2,752
2,716
Using industry current parts from other companies (intel) to build a relatively fast computer is innovation? Its not like Apple invented super fast parts that no one else has.
I guess its 'innovation' that they were able to cram those parts in a small cylander. But a year from now are you still gonna be oohhing and aahing over that black cylander?
Probably not. You wont even think or care about how it looks.

Do you know who will be oohing and awing next year? All the PC customers over the Mac Pro rip offs. This design will be stolen. And now that they know how to make a thermal core that small, are getting TB 2 chipsets for motherboards and fast PCI flash, PC makers will release lower priced versions of this because Apple did all the hard work already for them. That's who.
 

SteveW928

macrumors 68000
May 28, 2010
1,834
1,380
Victoria, B.C. Canada
Its a relatively fast, but not the fastest computer available right now. What do YOU mean by innovation then. What exactly is so amazing about this machine?

The combination of form-factor, quietness, and higher-end/speciality parts you'd not typically find in this kind of system up until now.

Sure, people have been building this kind of thing (sans form factor and quiet!) for some time, but like what SSD and such as done for laptops, this is kind of that kind of leap in the more pro-oriented desktop sector.

My beef with it is more that they've pretty much defined 'Pro' as (Final Cut) video editors, as for many other pros, this machine has a lot of shortcomings.

And, yea, other than *maybe* the video cards, one of my good friends has had a system for a least a few years that would still blow past this thing. In that sense, it's not really innovative. That said, it's going to seem REALLY fast compared to the desktops many pros have been using.

----------

... make a very powerful base machine that has the ability to be expanded externally via Thunderbolt 2.

Unfortunately, it's not all that externally expandable in areas that a lot of pros need, namely GPUs. TB2 is quick, but it's snail slow compared to the internal slots that have been around for years.

TB won't really be an external bus option until Intel goes optical. But, who knows where internal buses will be by then?

----------

I don't need that much power. I build machines more powerful for less though. Not as fancy of a case, but you get the idea.

The trick is apples to apples... pun intended. As other have mentioned, a number of tech places tried to do so, and it actually costs considerably more (which is expected, as Apple buys enough for a good discount).

That said, most people don't *need* the level of components Apple is using, so one could build a system that is as fast on a number of levels, just not as robust, for far less money (ex: i7 with non-ECC RAM, etc.).

----------

Cough..cough..Thunderbolt 2...Cough. A workstation using a single cooling fan about as quiet as a Mac Mini at 1/4 the size of conventual workstations. I'm sure Thunderbolt 2 will come out eventually for PC's.

It's actually quite a bit more quiet than a Mini, from what I've heard. A friend has a bunch of them, and has been burning them in under full load. You have to just about have your ear on the to tell they are running. Mini's get QUITE loud when under load, not to mention you'll likely eventually damage them doing so.

TB2 isn't really that big of a deal unless you're running 4k displays. It's nice, but USB3 or eSATA do pretty good for a lot less money. While I like TB, I'm kind of seeing a FW vs USB repeat happening here.

----------

What we can agree upon is that it will have its audience and most likely lose some of the old Mac Pro audience/buyers.

Yes, I agree here. The new Mac Pro, outside the Final Cut crowd (and eventually a few others) seems more pro-sumer than pro. It's clearly not as fast as it could be, and is limited in expansion for things like GPU and memory, which are arguably a couple of the biggest concerns for the true pro.

Me, I'd LOVE one, and probably will get one some day if budget allows. But, I'm barely on the edge of this pro market. The real pros I know upgrade their GPUs every year or two and need as much RAM as possible. And, while I'm sure everyone likes smaller and quieter, that's not all that big of a deal to many pros either, as their environments are often more optimized to to deal with the space/noise issues of such equipment.
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,531
851
If thats the case then every company can claim innovation.

Yes they can if they can make a workstation at the size of the Mac Pro or a laptop at the size of Macbook Air.

----------

Wind tunnel technology - not innovative

Sorry nothing really other than the shape is innovative.

No, the shape, size, and the cooling technology are innovative. What you are trying to say is that the wind tunnel technology is not new. Show me another computer that uses windtunnel cooling.
 

Terrin

macrumors 6502
Apr 5, 2011
430
1
Considering the hardware responsible for these numbers are designed and produced by companies that aren't Apple, I would think not.

That is unless you are talking about Final Cut Pro and not the hardware, in which case never mind.

Unlike a lot of companies, Apple actually contributes significantly to the performance of the machine. For instance, it does not use Intel's motherboard ( like everybody else). It designs its own. Further because it designs the OS it can control the hardware better. People forget Aople has a long history of designing computer processors.
 

Terrin

macrumors 6502
Apr 5, 2011
430
1
Your all over the map. Just because a computer doesn't do exactly what you want doesn't mean it isn't innovative. Pretty much every media publication all of which are in a hate Apple stage lately have panned the new Mac Pro as innovative, and a great value. I am not even sure where your other grievances are mean. You can replace the RAM and if a third party complies, the graphic chip can be replaced as well.
 

robeddie

Suspended
Jul 21, 2003
1,777
1,731
Atlanta
Wind tunnel technology - not innovative
Use of motherboard/daughterboard distribution - not innovative
All add ons external - can we say Mac Mini? - not innovative
Use of the designated video cards - not innovative
Use of proprietary cards - not innovative
Thunderbolt 2 - as innovative as USB 3.

Sorry nothing really other than the shape is innovative.

What we can agree upon is that it will have its audience and most likely lose some of the old Mac Pro audience/buyers.

BINGO.

The only part that you could probably call innovation is jamming that power in a smaller package. But in a tower computer, that's a borderline 'who cares' issue. You're not carrying it around much and it's likely hidden from view anyway.
Once it's no longer new in a few months and you're tired of looking at it, some of you guys who are smitten by it's 'beauty' right now and confusing that for ground breaking innovation will wonder what you were thinking.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,306
1,987
Berlin
E5-1650 - $550
2 Firepro D500 - $490 a piece ($980)
12 GB DDR3 1866 ECC - $180
Motherboard - $160
PSU - $90
256 GB SSD - $140

= $2,100~

Apple Mac Pro cost - $2,999

I don't even pay the prices mentioned above, anyone with Google does. I pay even less, probably $1,900. So $1,000 off. I didn't include a case or any 'innovation' though. :D

----------



"It is. Period.."

That's not how you make a point. If fitting already existing components into a smaller case is innovative to you then Apple has a fan for life and doesn't have to do much.

The retina displays are innovative. Touch ID as well. Motion co-processor. They are plenty innovative, but shrinking a tower is not new. They shrunk the iMac a while back if you heard. They shrink things all the time.

What people tend to overlook are those 6 thunderbolt 2 ports. That's where the true innovation lies.

You won't be able to transfer data to and from your machine on something like the new LaCie tb2 little big disk with 1,3gb/a transfer rates.. You won't be able to get a blackmagic ultra studio express to connect it to your machine and then also be able to take it with you to a shoot and connect it to your MacBook Pro while being somewhere you wouldn't take your Mac Pro but want an SDI powered preview monitor..
 

melendezest

Suspended
Jan 28, 2010
1,693
1,579
Wind tunnel technology - not innovative
Use of motherboard/daughterboard distribution - not innovative
All add ons external - can we say Mac Mini? - not innovative
Use of the designated video cards - not innovative
Use of proprietary cards - not innovative
Thunderbolt 2 - as innovative as USB 3.

Sorry nothing really other than the shape is innovative.

What we can agree upon is that it will have its audience and most likely lose some of the old Mac Pro audience/buyers.

LOL. It seems you're a bit hard to please.

From Merriam-Webster:
in·no·va·tion noun \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən\
: a new idea, device, or method
: the act or process of introducing new ideas, devices, or methods

This is simple math: A=More powerful than the old Mac Pro, B=in a quarter (a fifth?) of the size. Everything that it took to go from A to B required innovation, as defined above. No other computer has done it the way Apple did. Hence, it's new.

Your list focuses on the "what". The word you're looking for there is "invention."

Apple's "innovation" is (and always has been) in the "how".

Even you admit the shape is innovative. If that's the case, then everything needed to get there is as well. But I don't want to get stuck in semantics.

EDIT: Again, I'm not saying it's better than what came before, or that it fits everyone's needs. But people here seem to be saying "if I don't like it, it's not innovative". It is. It just isn't innovative in every category.
 
Last edited:

CausticPuppy

macrumors 68000
May 1, 2012
1,536
68
E5-1650 - $550
2 Firepro D500 - $490 a piece ($980)
12 GB DDR3 1866 ECC - $180
Motherboard - $160
PSU - $90
256 GB SSD - $140

= $2,100~

A XEON workstation class motherboard with registered ECC support for $160? I don't think so, Tim.
You also forgot a case.
Those D500's? Those closest thing is the W8000 which are $1299 each.
That 256SSD - nope, again you're limiting it to SATA-3 which will be half the speed of the PCIe version found in the Mac Pro. Try $700 for a 240GB PCIe that's comparable to the Mac Pro's. Remember you're looking for at least 1GB/s read and write!

What about the Thunderbolt 2 ports? I don't see that in your list. You need 6 of them.


So you can build a bigger, louder machine with inferior components for more money than a Mac Pro.
 

ReallyOldGuy

macrumors regular
Jan 26, 2010
208
0
in·no·va·tion noun \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən\
: a new idea, device, or method

: the act or process of introducing new ideas, devices, or methods

Full Definition of INNOVATION

1
: the introduction of something new
2
: a new idea, method, or device : novelty
— in·no·va·tion·al adjective
See innovation defined for English-language learners »
See innovation defined for kids »
Examples of INNOVATION

She is responsible for many innovations in her field.
the latest innovation in computer technology
Through technology and innovation, they found ways to get better results with less work.
the rapid pace of technological innovation
First Known Use of INNOVATION

15th century
Related to INNOVATION

Synonyms
brainchild, coinage, concoction, contrivance, creation, invention, wrinkle
Related Words
contraption, device, gadget, gizmo (also gismo), novelty; design, product, work; dream, fantasy (also phantasy), picture, vision; conception, imagining, origination
Near Antonyms
carbon copy, clone, copy, dupe, duplicate, duplication, facsimile, imitation, reduplication, replica, replication, reproduction
 

neuropsychguy

macrumors 68020
Sep 29, 2008
2,382
5,666
A XEON workstation class motherboard with registered ECC support for $160? I don't think so, Tim.
You also forgot a case.
Those D500's? Those closest thing is the W8000 which are $1299 each.
That 256SSD - nope, again you're limiting it to SATA-3 which will be half the speed of the PCIe version found in the Mac Pro. Try $700 for a 240GB PCIe that's comparable to the Mac Pro's. Remember you're looking for at least 1GB/s read and write!

What about the Thunderbolt 2 ports? I don't see that in your list. You need 6 of them.


So you can build a bigger, louder machine with inferior components for more money than a Mac Pro.

People need to realize that new models (i.e., when Apple releases a machine that isn't just a simple spec bump) of Macs are usually great deals for what you get. It's down the road a year or two when Apple has just done (or not done) minor spec increases that you can build something better for less (although building has its own problems).

Right now, this Mac Pro is a very good price for what you're getting. I don't think anyone could build something with comparable workstation-class components for less, factoring in the value of OS X.
 

anomie

Suspended
Jun 29, 2010
557
152
Using industry current parts from other companies (intel) to build a relatively fast computer is innovation? Its not like Apple invented super fast parts that no one else has.
I guess its 'innovation' that they were able to cram those parts in a small cylander. But a year from now are you still gonna be oohhing and aahing over that black cylander?
Probably not. You wont even think or care about how it looks.

Are you serious? Do you realize at all that innovation is a short period thing?
Of course in a year it won't be seen as innovative as now.
Btw what you describe (using industry parts to build something new) is EXACTLY what innovation means.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,484
4,268
you couldn't be more wrong. Bugatti is perfect example. They have built the Veyron just to proof the engineering excellence. Not to make money! In fact, that project lost money but the result is pure delight. If you think that metric for innovation is money then I don't think we will continue this discussion in a constructive manner as you are blatantly ignorant to what innovation is.

Actually, VW build Veryons because it give steam an entry into a market that they never would have with just VW/Porsche/Audi.Skoda/Seat/Lamborghini et.al doesn't. In the end, it is about money overall rather than one particular brand. VW feels losing a 6 or so million per car is worth the return they get from the exposure and access.

Btw, the inventor of a wheel didn't make money, yet the innovation is still used!
For crying out loud, does everything has to be about money for you to even move a finger?

No, but for for profit companies it generally is; and there is nothing wrong with that. Besides, whose to say the inventor of the wheel didn't benefit form it?
 

lincolntran

macrumors 6502a
Jan 18, 2010
843
471
The combination of form-factor, quietness, and higher-end/speciality parts you'd not typically find in this kind of system up until now.

Sure, people have been building this kind of thing (sans form factor and quiet!) for some time, but like what SSD and such as done for laptops, this is kind of that kind of leap in the more pro-oriented desktop sector.

My beef with it is more that they've pretty much defined 'Pro' as (Final Cut) video editors, as for many other pros, this machine has a lot of shortcomings.

And, yea, other than *maybe* the video cards, one of my good friends has had a system for a least a few years that would still blow past this thing. In that sense, it's not really innovative. That said, it's going to seem REALLY fast compared to the desktops many pros have been using.

----------



Unfortunately, it's not all that externally expandable in areas that a lot of pros need, namely GPUs. TB2 is quick, but it's snail slow compared to the internal slots that have been around for years.

TB won't really be an external bus option until Intel goes optical. But, who knows where internal buses will be by then?

----------



The trick is apples to apples... pun intended. As other have mentioned, a number of tech places tried to do so, and it actually costs considerably more (which is expected, as Apple buys enough for a good discount).

That said, most people don't *need* the level of components Apple is using, so one could build a system that is as fast on a number of levels, just not as robust, for far less money (ex: i7 with non-ECC RAM, etc.).

----------



It's actually quite a bit more quiet than a Mini, from what I've heard. A friend has a bunch of them, and has been burning them in under full load. You have to just about have your ear on the to tell they are running. Mini's get QUITE loud when under load, not to mention you'll likely eventually damage them doing so.

TB2 isn't really that big of a deal unless you're running 4k displays. It's nice, but USB3 or eSATA do pretty good for a lot less money. While I like TB, I'm kind of seeing a FW vs USB repeat happening here.

----------



Yes, I agree here. The new Mac Pro, outside the Final Cut crowd (and eventually a few others) seems more pro-sumer than pro. It's clearly not as fast as it could be, and is limited in expansion for things like GPU and memory, which are arguably a couple of the biggest concerns for the true pro.

Me, I'd LOVE one, and probably will get one some day if budget allows. But, I'm barely on the edge of this pro market. The real pros I know upgrade their GPUs every year or two and need as much RAM as possible. And, while I'm sure everyone likes smaller and quieter, that's not all that big of a deal to many pros either, as their environments are often more optimized to to deal with the space/noise issues of such equipment.

Who/what are other "pro" usage that this machine can't handle? Is it another movie making pro crowd? I'm not in the movie industry so I'm curious.
 

zardoz320

macrumors newbie
Jul 29, 2011
9
3
E5-1650 - $550
2 Firepro D500 - $490 a piece ($980)
12 GB DDR3 1866 ECC - $180
Motherboard - $160
PSU - $90
256 GB SSD - $140

= $2,100~

Apple Mac Pro cost - $2,999

I don't even pay the prices mentioned above, anyone with Google does. I pay even less, probably $1,900. So $1,000 off. I didn't include a case or any 'innovation' though. :D

----------



Typical DIY fanboy response, not including half of the necessary components in your quote and not using similar quality parts. Name a motherboard out there that will take this Xeon processor plus the two GPUs, and an operating system other than OS X that can take advantage of them. Now get support for your little DIY project when it blows up in your face, which it will because none of the parts have been thoroughly tested together in that configuration...I see a lot of fingerpointing from vendors and no resolutions to your problems. Apple has the best customer service and tech support of any technology company in existence, which is also part of what you're paying for.

Here's an article or two showing how much more it would cost for HP or Dell to build a desktop with as much power as the nMP. Problem is, neither Windows 8.1 or the manufacturers can take advantage of multiple GPUs. So, good luck with that buddy...

https://www.macrumors.com/2013/12/3...g-versus-oem-pcs-diy-systems-more-affordable/

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...s-2000-cheaper-than-the-equivalent-windows-pc
 

Lordrootman

macrumors newbie
Feb 26, 2014
9
0
HOUSTON TX
What do stock prices have to do with it? Apple makes their billions by selling devices and computers, not by trading stock. Google makes their billions by selling ads. And it turns out Apple makes more billions than Google. So if you want money to be the deciding factor in who is more “innovative” then Apple wins anyways.

But seriously, money is the worst metric for determining innovation. They’re not related at all.

If so why people are trying to innovate all the time ?
What they will get from it ?
 
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