Protecting Our Borders?

Discussion in 'Community' started by mkubal, Dec 10, 2002.

  1. mkubal macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    I was wondering what everyone thought about sending the military to plug the holes in our border. Aparently a majority of Americans are in favor of it. What do you all think.

    P.S. I'm really not interested in who you think is at fault politically for the situation and I really don't want to start the blame game. I just want to know what you all think about troops on the borders. Keep your politics out of it.


    Personally, I think its worth a shot. There are alot of people slipping through our borders (North and South) who want nothing more than to do harm to us. I'm not saying to stop all immigration just the illegal immigration. How could you argue against stopping illegal immigration. It is after all illegal. And if using the army doesn't work then we can always change back to the old way or find a new way.

    Matt
     
  2. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #2
    yeah im for sending in the military on the border.


    sounds logical at this time.
     
  3. D0ct0rteeth macrumors 65816

    D0ct0rteeth

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    #3
    It is actually on Fox right now...

    O'Reilly Factor

    -Doc
     
  4. mkubal thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    O'Reilly

    Yeah, I watched O'Reilly tonight. That's why I posted this thread. Good call though.

    Matt
     
  5. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    yep... mr bill o'reilly is very vocal about that. he is the first one i heard address it with that view. when i heard that view i was like "brillant"....


    he has been saying this for some time now.
     
  6. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    Re: Protecting Our Borders?

    How can you keep politics out of a topic that's inherently political? We currently are seeing a lot of illegal immigration, and it seems to me there are two solutions: 1) Clamp down even harder on the borders, and 2) Allow more legal immigrants so that the illegal ones don't have to enter illegally.

    I'm against illegal immigration, and for making more immigration legal rather than threatening to shoot innocent people who want to make better lives for themselves on sight.
     
  7. MacBandit macrumors 604

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    #7
    Pull our troops out of the east COMPLETELY and use them to protect the United States here at home. Part of this is border patrol.
     
  8. Macette macrumors 6502

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    #8
    From the other side

    <mildly> how about helping the rest of the world solve their problems (declaring war on them doesn't count) so that people don't NEED to illegally or legally enter America? i mean, people don't just immigrate for the hell of it. they immigrate because living whereever they're living has been made impossible because of war, famine, etc etc etc. and contrary to popular belief, MOST people aren't entering America to harm you guys - they're entering America to escape something else. then, because they can't get welfare as 'illegal' immigrants, they're then forced to turn to their communities for help... which makes them easy, vulnerable targets for militants/extremists promoting the nutso ideas that we've all heard abou, unless we've been living in caves for the last 18 months... </mildly>
     
  9. MacBandit macrumors 604

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    #9
    Re: From the other side

    As if we have anyway to fix other peoples problems. We haven't even fixed our own yet. We need to take care of America first and help others later.
     
  10. mkubal thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    alex ant: I guess there are inherent politics involved in the whole thing, but I was just try to keep people from coming in and saying something stupid like "Bush hates Mexicans." (just a random example)

    Macette: I do agree with you that most of the people coming in want nothing more than to be able to get decent work and to leave the problems of their former country behind. For those people I have no problem with them immigrating. I just think that we should force them to do it legally.

    Matt
     
  11. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #11
    if the terrorists want to do us harm, be sure, they already have enough people in place here already...some for perhaps years, that can do enough harm to the usa

    let's focus our monies on geting the al qaeda terrorists already in the us and bring them to justice instead of trying to plug a several thousand mile border with two countires, two oceans, and a large gulf
     
  12. alex_ant macrumors 68020

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    The problem is that if they want to enter legally, they have to wait many years because our immigration quotas are too low. That's why they pay their life savings to professional smugglers and sometimes risk their lives to get across. I'm not saying illegal immigration should be right and OK, but there are other ways to solving this problem than fortifying the border with motion sensors and attack dogs and armed guards.
     
  13. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #13

    yeah i agree with you to a point.... but i think we could do both without any trouble. instead of having our military men in other countries doing whatever... protecting others.. etc. etc.... lets bring them back home and have them protect our borders.... the others will be after al qaeda... hows that sound? impractical? i tried.


    err
     
  14. Backtothemac macrumors 601

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    #14
    Re: From the other side

    I find it sad that over 3,000 people died because of the US putting its noses in other countries buisness, and no one wants our help when we think they need it, but when we don't offer it they require it? the only obligation that the US has is to the people of this country. Do illegal immigrates hurt the US. Sure they do. They take jobs from American Citizens that have a right to work in this country. They lower quality standards, and they feast on the social programs that we have here in the US through illegal means. I say seal the boarders, and place a freeze on immigration totally.
     
  15. alex_ant macrumors 68020

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    #15
    It's also a fact that essentially everything illegal immigrants take from the economy they give back. Sure they take jobs, and then they create jobs by contributing to the economy (buying food, paying rent, what have you).
     
  16. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #16
    im really not sold on either side of the whole immigrant issue. im still trying to figure it all out i guess.


    i mean...the immigrants cause a negative and a positive effect on our country. i guess the key is to lessen the negative effect and increase the positive effect as much as possible. im not sure if its possible. now that we are in a time that one of the causes of 9/11 was a problem with immigration i think we have to really consider if we want to sacrifice the positives of immigration to protect us. its a complex situation... im just glad im not the one having to decide for america.. thats why im not a politician.


    we are in difficult times that challenges the foundation of what america believes in... but we are stronger because of it.
     
  17. kenkooler macrumors regular

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    #17
    Re: Re: From the other side

    What kind of help has the United States ever offered that is not for its own benefit? Declaring war on a country is not helping them.
     
  18. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #18
    Gee Ken, lets see, I am sure that if you look you can find lots of instances of us helping your country no?

    How about Bosnia? How about all the economic help the US throughs around the world.

    Man, you have to be smarter than that statement. :)
     
  19. kenkooler macrumors regular

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    #19
    Sure, together with lots of times you have hurted us.
    You didn't want ex-Yugoslavian states to have a non capitalist US-like form of government.
    Economic help usually comes from conditions like in the case of Argentina and Mexico, having to adopt a Neo-liberalist economy, that was the cause for the economic troubles in Mexico in 1994 and Argentina in 2002.
     
  20. mkubal thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #20
    default

    alex_ant:
    I'm talking about keeping those who wish to harm us from entering the U.S. to begin with, not those who are already here. Sure there are plenty of people in the U.S. already who are here with the intentions of hurting us, but thats no excuse to overlook the source of these people. We spend more money on defense than any other country (by far). I think we can handle both problems at once.

    kenkooler:
    Argueably, any help the United Sates would offer would be for its benefit. But this is the same for any country that offers help to another country. By offering help to someone else you would reap the benefits of the results whether direct as in monetary or indirect as in making the world a better place for everyone. But this is a philisophical arguement. Namely: Is there such a thing as a good selfless deed? However, philosophy is completely off topic.

    Also, I would have to agree with alex_ant about the immigrants helping the economy. Right now those illegal immigrants are occupying millions of jobs that no other american would wish to do. Things such as, picking oranges or strawberries, or being a janitor at a school (please don't take offense to this, it's not meant to be a racial slur). These are jobs that many of those unemployed Americans would never want to do. I think that the immigrants support our economy alot more than we realize. It comes in the form of cheap physical labor. Not that this practice is ethical, but thats just the way it is.

    But we also must realize that allowing people to cross the the border illegaly, as if it was going out of style tomorrow, is going to hurt us in the long run. Eventually the job markets will become flooded to the point that even the Mexicans will be out of work. So what happens then? The crime rate goes through the roof. Especially for illegals.

    Am I wrong with these assumptions?

    Matt
     
  21. drastik macrumors 6502a

    drastik

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    #21
    Re: Re: From the other side

    And I suppose that you are a native american? Never had family immigrate to this country?

    PS. My fiance is from Singapore, she is a legal alien and will soon have a green card that allows her permanent residence without her having to give up her Singaporean citizenship.

    And I'm thrilled about it.
     
  22. Macette macrumors 6502

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    #22
    I'm an alien
    I'm a legal alien

    I'm an Englishman in New York

    lalalala
     
  23. alex_ant macrumors 68020

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    #23
    Re: default


    I think that anyone who wishes to enter the US in order to do harm will be able to do so no matter how strong of a border we have. Unless we restrict all immigration so that nobody can get in, including fortifying our huge Canadian border, trying to stop terrorists or whoever by this method would be like trying to save a sinking boat by plugging the holes with one's fingers.

    I think the real problem is coming to the root of questions like "Why are we hated?" And "Why do people want to attack us?" The only reason we haven't done this, I believe, is because we don't like the answers to these questions, and we refuse to accept that our actions (especially with regard to foreign policy), whatever they may be, could possibly be wrong, or bad for us in the long term.
    If illegal immigrants were strictly a source of labor competing with Americans for jobs, then this would be true. But they do give back, so I believe it's a false assumption. The US economy has managed to expand from a country with a few million people in the 1800s to one with 280 million people now, and on top of that, quality of life has increased. There's no reason to believe that if the economy were flooded with an extra million immigrants tomorrow, it wouldn't actually grow. Theoretically this would cause a short-term (several months) job shortage and then an evening-out of the employment rate to the level it was before, all other economic factors aside.
     
  24. macktheknife macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    The "Economist" did a recent study on the immigration issue and found, on the whole, that immigrants do indeed contribute greatly to the economy. Illegal immigration do not hurt native-born Americans as much as immigrants who came earlier but work in the same industry where illegal immigrants usually work, namely agriculture, food services, etc.

    Also, remember that the United States enjoys economic growth rates above the average of other industrialized countries due in part to strong population growth, which in turn is fueled by immigration. Japan and Western Europe are facing a demographic timebomb of sorts when their respective populations are expected to decline in the next 20-30 years, increasing the burden on state welfare and pension schemes. Of course, the US is expected to have a similiar problem with respect to Social Security, but it's nowhere as dire as the situation in other industrialized countries.

    Remember that the United States is a country founded on immigration and has been made stronger by it. I know this is a cliche', but I think native-born Americans tend to forget this. When the Irish came to the US during the early 1800s, they were not "mericans because they were not of English descent and were not Protestants. When the other Western Europeans came a few decades later, they were told they were not Americans because they spoke no English. When the Southern and Eastern Europeans came in the late 1800s and early 1900s, they were told they were not Americans because they did not share the Western European heritage.

    I could go on, but you get the idea: immigrants were often met with fierce resistance while the definition of "American" has been continually enlarged. All the arguements against immigration--that they are not one of "us", that they don't want to integrate, that they bring down the country--have all been heard before.
     
  25. mkubal thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    in agreeance

    No one so far, with the exception of maybe one, has said that they have a problem with immigrants coming to this country. In fact I'm all for it. Those people that hop the border looking for a better life aren't out to kill Americans. They want to be one. The issue here is with those who cross the border with the intentions of killing us.

    To say that these undesirable people will make it into our country reguardless of the plugging of the border is a poor excuse to not guard the borders. By that logic, we should just give up our war on terror because we can never get them all. And the FBI should stop looking for terrorists here because we can't stop them from coming.

    Think about this: If the Hoover Dam suddenly sprung hundreds of holes, we wouldn't just say screw it. We would plug the holes, and you have to start somewhere. You have to start with the first hole and work your way through them until they're all plugged.

    When we apply this to this situation we would first start by plugging the borders. After we had that fixed we would slowly become aware of other ways that people were illegaly getting into America and we would defense against these. No one ever said that guarding our borders would be the end all of terrorists attacks in America, but it's a good starting point.

    Also, to deflect attention away from this problem by saying "but look at this, this is worse," is simply an ignorant way to avoid adressing a problem (thanks to Bill O'Reilly for that one). So to say we shouldn't be worrying about protecting our borders, but rather look at why people hate us so much, is simply not addressing the problem. It's plain stupid and to think that doing so will solve the border problem is nothing short of naive.

    I don't think anyone has forgotten that with the exception of the Native Americans, we are all of immigrant roots. I'm czech and polish. My family has been in America for five or six generations now, but I don't forget where I came from. I'm not saying that I don't want Mexicans to become Americans, I just want them to do it legally and that goes for people from any other nation. In the end, it doesn't seem like too much to ask and it would aid us in protecting our country from terrorists. That is THE bottom line...but I could be a complete fool.

    Matt

    <note to self> accidentally hitting the escape key while typing your post will delete all that you have written--this is not desirable </note to self>
     

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