PW Botha Dead

[Queso]

PW Botha, who many South Africans see as the last Apartheid leader of the country, has died aged 90 in his home near Cape Town. Botha, who led the ruling National Party for 11 years before handing over power to FW De Klerk, steadfastly refused to reform the country beyond token measures or release Nelson Mandela from captivity on Robben Island. During the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings set up by the ANC-led coalition government after the end of Apartheid in 1994, he was repeatedly accused of sanctioning the torture and murder of political prisoners.

Perhaps in a sign of how much South Africa has changed, he will be granted a state funeral.

BBC News

 

[Transic]

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[dextertangocci]

Oh! I didn't even know

 

[Cloudgazer]

Perhaps in a sign of how much South Africa has changed, he will be granted a state funeral.

BBC News

Hehehe, I was quite surprised to see this thread on an international mac forum.

All ex-state leaders have the right to a state funeral. Its not surprising at all that the state should grant him one.
hell, we'd be surprised if he wasn't granted one.

But, apparently his family have refused the honour.

 

[Queso]

All ex-state leaders have the right to a state funeral. Its not surprising at all that the state should grant him one.
hell, we'd be surprised if he wasn't granted one.

Thanks. That I didn't know. I'm not surprised the've refused it though. I can imagine it would turn into a real circus, and nobody wants that when they're laying a family member to rest.

 

[danidoll521]

I am curious, as someone who's not from South Africa, how was PW Botha treated by the people of SA after he left office. Was he pretty much left alone, or was there lasting resentment over his rule and the apartheid policies he supported? I am sure there was resentment, so I guess I am more about how the people in South Africa responded to and treated him.

 

[Queso]

I always got the impression there was more resentment coming from Botha than towards him in the end. He suffered a series of strokes during the 90s and became a recluse. Apart from the TRC hearings, which he was vehemently opposed to, not much was really heard from him. However, the few interviews he did give, he showed a bitterness towards events that was totally at odds with the new "Rainbow Nation" spirit virtually everyone else in the country was striving towards.

 

[danidoll521]

I always got the impression there was more resentment coming from Botha than towards him in the end. He suffered a series of strokes during the 90s and became a recluse. Apart from the TRC hearings, which he was vehemently opposed to, not much was really heard from him. However, the few interviews he did give, he showed a bitterness towards events that was totally at odds with the new "Rainbow Nation" spirit virtually everyone else in the country was striving towards.

I am surprised by this...I would have thought that there would have been resentment toward him. He did make public appearances for the TRC hearings, correct? I guess his death signifies the end of an era in SA history that will never be forgotten, an era that was eventually reversed.

By the way, reading about Botha's death made me remember a book that I read not long ago, Disgrace by JM Coetzee. It was a remarkable book that everyone should have the opportunity to read.

 

[dextertangocci]

I am curious, as someone who's not from South Africa, how was PW Botha treated by the people of SA after he left office. Was he pretty much left alone, or was there lasting resentment over his rule and the apartheid policies he supported? I am sure there was resentment, so I guess I am more about how the people in South Africa responded to and treated him.

He was just left alone, apart from a few interviews, which weren't allowed to be published due to his racist comments in those interviews.

But don't be fooled, South Africa is not the "rainbow nation" everyone makes it out to be. There are still a lot of problems, and many feel that it is like aparthied is being reversed at the moment.

 

[Cloudgazer]

I am curious, as someone who's not from South Africa, how was PW Botha treated by the people of SA after he left office. Was he pretty much left alone, or was there lasting resentment over his rule and the apartheid policies he supported? I am sure there was resentment, so I guess I am more about how the people in South Africa responded to and treated him.

I'm sure there was some resentment, but on the whole, I think there has been a lot of forgiveness.
Botha wasn't the architect of apartheid, and certainly not the worst PM we ever had.
People just left him alone for the most part, and probably didn't give him a second's thought.
His name didn't cross my mind for years.

 

[combatcolin]

I used to work with a black south african woman, she was 58 and left SA because of the voilence, and she dispised a lot of her fellow black countryman.

Dispite of the racist goverment she said it was a lot safer for everyone, black and white, during the years of apartied.

 

[vouder17]

I used to work with a black south african woman, she was 58 and left SA because of the voilence, and she dispised a lot of her fellow black countryman.

Dispite of the racist goverment she said it was a lot safer for everyone, black and white, during the years of apartied.

During apartheid, the south african Economy was booming, the Rand was really strong, and as you say it was safer. But I dont think all these advantages could be justified by the suppression of a whole race.
South Africa may not be the wonderful Rainbow nation that everyone wants it to be, but it is much more developed than most other African countries. the government seems reasonably stable, and their seems to be a control on corruption. The crime rate is still far to high, and black-empowerment does seem to be turning Apartheid around, by a few degrees too many. But all round, South Africa is a beautiful country, the people are very warm hearted, and the weather is unbeatable(part that I miss the most ) Hopefully South Africa can turn around any negative issues its dealing with at the moment, and become a beacon of hope for the rest of Africa.

The fact that Nelson Mandela sent his condolences to the man that kept in prison, unrightfully, shows what an amazing man he is. He is really a one of a kind man, the world needs more people like him.

 

[kirk26]

PW Botha, who many South Africans see as the last Apartheid leader of the country, has died aged 90 in his home near Cape Town. Botha, who led the ruling National Party for 11 years before handing over power to FW De Klerk, steadfastly refused to reform the country beyond token measures or release Nelson Mandela from captivity on Robben Island. During the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings set up by the ANC-led coalition government after the end of Apartheid in 1994, he was repeatedly accused of sanctioning the torture and murder of political prisoners.

Perhaps in a sign of how much South Africa has changed, he will be granted a state funeral.

BBC News

RIP. You were great.

 

[Jasonbot]

I guess as a south african I should speak from experience here even though this is already pretty old news. My schools flags were flying at half mast at the time of his death kind of to pay tribute to him even though he was an evil apartheid leader he could be seen as the last or mayb even the beginning of the end of apartheid.

I have never lived during the apartheid time but my parents say it was BAD and now evertything is sorted. What confuses me is why has our economy diminished, crime rates increased and black economic empowerment taken such a toll on us. Most people want to immigrate these days http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20061111112857791C752118

Is this what my beautiful country strived for through all the struggle? I hop not

 

[Queso]

I guess as a south african I should speak from experience here even though this is already pretty old news. My schools flags were flying at half mast at the time of his death kind of to pay tribute to him even though he was an evil apartheid leader he could be seen as the last or mayb even the beginning of the end of apartheid.

I have never lived during the apartheid time but my parents say it was BAD and now evertything is sorted. What confuses me is why has our economy diminished, crime rates increased and black economic empowerment taken such a toll on us. Most people want to immigrate these days http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20061111112857791C752118

Is this what my beautiful country strived for through all the struggle? I hop not

The economy isn't damaged beyond repair. It's just a serious amount of cash is being put into development to the poorest people in the country. Once their standard of living rises to the point where they have disposable income the money machine will start working again.

The same thing happened in Germany after reunification. Rebuilding the old East Germany took all the cash the country had, and it's only now beginning to recover. Considering Germany's economy completely dwarfs South Africa's, and you also have the problem of a large uneducated population, and it's going to be 2020 at the earliest before things start to right themselves for you.

I know a lot of South Africans who are working up here in the EU. All complain about the crime etc. in SA yet all are sending money home and planning to return at some point. That says a lot for the future of the country.

 

[emac kinda guy]

PW Botha

During apartheid, the south african Economy was booming, the Rand was really strong, and as you say it was safer. But I dont think all these advantages could be justified by the suppression of a whole race.
South Africa may not be the wonderful Rainbow nation that everyone wants it to be, but it is much more developed than most other African countries. the government seems reasonably stable, and their seems to be a control on corruption. The crime rate is still far to high, and black-empowerment does seem to be turning Apartheid around, by a few degrees too many. But all round, South Africa is a beautiful country, the people are very warm hearted, and the weather is unbeatable(part that I miss the most ) Hopefully South Africa can turn around any negative issues its dealing with at the moment, and become a beacon of hope for the rest of Africa.

The fact that Nelson Mandela sent his condolences to the man that kept in prison, unrightfully, shows what an amazing man he is. He is really a one of a kind man, the world needs more people like him.

Nelson Mandela sent his condolences to the man that kept in prison, unrightfully, shows what an amazing man he is. He is really a one of a kind man, the world needs more people like him.

Forgiveness is quite an amazing phenomenon

 

[x86isslow]

RIP. You were great.

Are you being facetious?

 

[Jasonbot]

The economy isn't damaged beyond repair. It's just a serious amount of cash is being put into development to the poorest people in the country. Once their standard of living rises to the point where they have disposable income the money machine will start working again.

The same thing happened in Germany after reunification. Rebuilding the old East Germany took all the cash the country had, and it's only now beginning to recover. Considering Germany's economy completely dwarfs South Africa's, and you also have the problem of a large uneducated population, and it's going to be 2020 at the earliest before things start to right themselves for you.

I know a lot of South Africans who are working up here in the EU. All complain about the crime etc. in SA yet all are sending money home and planning to return at some point. That says a lot for the future of the country.

I beg to differ, as much as you assume all this money is pumped into the poor you are slghtly mistaken. South Africa has two groups of black south africans, the rich and the poor. There is no middle class and a majority of these poor live in informal settlements called squatter camps. As for the money, we see so many rich blacks driving around in large SUV's feeling sorry for themselves that they were "previously disadvantaged" during apartheid. What about the currently disadvantaged still living in the camps?

Maybe the ecnomy is repairable but as long as South Afrrica is a third world country we will not see the lightt of day any time soon. And we are less than half as smart as the Germans! We have no proper plans in place, our disorganization is almost costing us the 2010 soccer cup, our governmant deals with corruption issues daily like it's going out of fashion and our Health Minister (Manto Tshabala Msimang) recommends eating beetroot to help prevent AIDS how can we have a country run like this and recover @ the same time? As much as I hope for a solution I often feel there is none to come.

 

[dextertangocci]

And because of BEE, you could call many of the white people in SA "presently disadvantaged." This whole BEE thing has ruined a lot of businesses...

 

[Jasonbot]

And because of BEE, you could call many of the white people in SA "presently disadvantaged." This whole BEE thing has ruined a lot of businesses...

That's Why I'll emigrate when I get my degree soon! Only 2 years left of school then it's off to varsity for me. Maybe BEE will become WEE when I make it into the big bad businees brawl!?

 

[dextertangocci]

That's Why I'll emigrate when I get my degree soon! Only 2 years left of school then it's off to varsity for me. Maybe BEE will become WEE when I make it into the big bad businees brawl!?

I hope so... But how are you going to even get into a university, when even UCT has to accept something like 80% black 20% white It's pathetic..

 

[Jasonbot]

I hope so... But how are you going to even get into a university, when even UCT has to accept something like 80% black 20% white It's pathetic..

Hmm, I have not considered this My dad often says that engineering is still predomiinantly white. I apologise that this may seem racist but thats just how it is in South Africa. And hopefully my 80% average will carry through to matric so I'll be all happy and get university exemptioin. If not Then stanford/ or other US university is calling!