Quadra 950 booting issues

Discussion in 'Apple Collectors' started by SirFoxx, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Location:
    Galien, Michigan
    #1
    I just recently picked up a quadra 950 from a junk shop, and was trying to resurrect it from the dead. I managed to get it to show a picture, but only one of a floppy disk with a flashing "x" in it. I have seen threads on how to make a boot floppy for it, but anyone have the best way to do it? Also, I have a non-apple scsi drive that I am currently going to use with...Is there a way to get it to mount the drive? (mt. everything?) Also, what would be the best OS to use with it?

    p.s. The shop where I got this Apple also had not one, not 2, but 3 Apple IICI's and a 2E laying around amongst the piles of stuff he had.
     
  2. macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #2
    System 7.0.1 is the minimum for the Quadra 950, as per:

    http://support.apple.com/kb/TA33972

    As such, you can get 7.0.1 from Apple here:

    http://download.info.apple.com/Appl...n/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.0.x/

    The "System_7.0.1.smi.bin" contains "Disk Copy 4.2" disk images of the 1.44MB floppy disks of the full System 7.0.1 Install disk set.

    As for formatting the SCSI drive, Apple's "HD Setup" is crippled to only work with drives containing Apple's firmware. There are patched versions around that purport to work with any drive, but doesn't always.

    The other option is a third party tool such as the now defunct FWB's "HardDisk Toolkit".

    Hard Disk ToolKit PE 2.0.1.zip (1.04 MB)

    Exactly how you will do this with only a floppy drive and no Mac formatted HD is kinda beyond me ATM. :(
     
  3. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #3
    Would something on this site work? (http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/scsi.html) Also, how do I copy the .image file correctly to a floppy drive using a new mac? I've tried using the "dd" command in terminal, but it doesnt seem to work, but I'm not sure if my floppy disk is bad.
     
  4. MacTech68, Nov 30, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #4
    Not sure if any of the patched or the AUX version of HD SC Setup will allow you to format your SCSI drive, but you can always try. You'll need to delete the copy on the Disk Tools floppy you make and copy the 'patched' version to the Disk Tools floppy.

    A little digging has shown that there are 84 bytes of header info in a Disk Copy 4.2 image, so the following command should work in DD.

    dd if=(Source disk image) of=[NEW IMAGE.img] bs=84 skip=1

    to create new images. You should then be able to write the new images. You might even get it to work in one operation:

    dd if=[Source disk image] of=/dev/[FLOPPY DISKn] bs=84 skip=1

    The trick is to FIRSTLY unmount the floppy in MacOS X without removing the device:

    diskutil unmount /dev/[FLOPPY DISKn]
     
  5. macrumors 6502

    havokalien

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Kelso, Wa
    #5
    Macs and stuff

    I don't know where your at but if your in the states I wouldn't mind paying shipping and your time to get the macs you see there.

    As for the floppy, I would assume you don't have a Mac or know anyone with one so the only way is to get an emulator like baskalisk II and see if it will make a floppy from the downloaded images.

    Second is probably they have pulled the hard drive from that unit so even if you get it to boot you won't be able to do much else. I love resurrecting old macs, for price of shipping ill send an OS floppy and a useable scsi drive to get you going.
     
  6. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #6
    What is the difference between the two commands? and where is the "patched" version of disk tools? Is it the two formatters listed on the website?
    I do have a mac laptop, which I am currently using to try and get the DD command to make a proper disk for me, using a USB FDD drive.

    I am in the states, Lower SW Michigan, and the shop is ran when the weather is nice to nice-ish, don't think he will be open till the spring (shop is owned by an older gentleman, who is a... mass collector, to put it in nice terms) If you are willing to pay $15 a crack, then I'd be happy to see if I can get them, no guarantee that they work though. I also saw an apple keyboard that had the phone jack-style plug on it, along with the colorstyle printer. When I got the quadra, I snabbed a 5.25 drive, which I can't use, and 3 different books on one of the older macs. The 2E is missing a key or two, and looked weathered, according to my dad...If you want to post here, or PM me about shipping, that would be wonderful! My friend gave me two seagate drives, only one of them works. I am also still debating whether or not the floppy drive still works, like reading the disk-wise.
     
  7. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #7
    Also, how do I format a floppy so that the Quadra will recognize it? and what are the symptoms of a bad floppy drive? It will move the head up and down the disk once, and then eject it with the flashing X on the floppy symbol...

    ps. I did find a version of the Apple SC HD setup that is patched (7.5.3) and is in .app format, i think...
     
  8. MacTech68, Nov 30, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #8
    The disk copy operation will copy the floppy's format to the disk. Once you get a system onto that SCSI HD, then you can format a floppy on the Quadra.

    The drive in the Quadra seems to be behaving as it should. It looks for a format (possibly doesn't find one) then would next look for a system to boot from. It doesn't. So it ejects the disk. Sounds normal to me but that doesn't mean the drive is ok.

    The first command takes the original disk image and writes a new file with the first 84 bytes removed. Apparently, this should then give you a disk image that dd can write to a physical floppy disk.

    The [Source disk image] is path to your original "Disk Tools.image" file (including the file name).

    For example, if it was on your desktop, then it would be:

    /Users/MYUSERNAME/Desktop/Disk\ Tools.image

    You must always preceed a space character with a backslash. Hence the:
    "Disk\ Tools.image"

    The second, skips the intermediate task of writing the new disk image as a file, and instead writes the disk image with the first 84bytes skipped onto a physical floppy disk.

    [FLOPPY DISKn] is where your floppy drive is. It may be something like:

    /dev/disk1

    depending on how many physical drives (hard disk, thumb drives etc) you have. Look in MacOS X's Disk Utility. Select the floppy device (not the volume on the device) and click on the Info button. The "Disk Identifier :" is what you're looking for.

    NOTE that you only need the 'bs=84 skip=1' when the SOURCE disk image is an original DiskCopy 4.2 disk image. You will only need to strip those first 84 bytes off ONCE. :D

    Yes, HD SC Setup 3.01 (A/UX) is linked but he's pasted the raw text of the file into the page. I've attached that file as a .hqx
     

    Attached Files:

  9. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #9
    So can I take an ordinary floppy disk and copy the files onto it and it will work or does it need to be a specific file type?

    It could be that or it could be that I need to reset the PRAM -- I've got a keyboard and mouse coming in the mail that I got off of ebay.


    Assuming that I have expanded it correctly with Stuffit, I now have an Application (Classic) on my desktop. I understand how to use DD command, but I guess what I need to know, in order to get the computer to boot to anything, is how to format the floppy so I can use the hdd formatter, and go from there.
    I can't thank you enough for all the support you have given me so far! :D
     
  10. MacTech68, Nov 30, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #10
    OK. Sadly MacOS X doesn't allow writing to HFS Standard formatted disks or images, so copying the HD SC Setup to the Disk Tools disk is not achievable. Even 10.4.11 on PPC doesn't seem to allow this. My bad. I have plenty of older Macs to do this with.

    Perhaps somebody else has a way?

    You should certainly be able to create a bootable floppy of Disk Tools from the image file (skipping the first 84 bytes) with MacOS X using dd - this much seems to be documented on several websites.

    I'm sorry to say that I'm a little stumped. Need more research on this one. Unfortunately, the disk image framework that Apple uses in MacOS X can read and copy HFS Standard images created by Disk Copy 4.2, but cannot write INTO them. Damn you, Apple! :mad:

    EDIT:

    Using MacFuse, install the plugin FuseHFS:

    http://namedfork.net/fusehfs

    :)
     
  11. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #11
    I managed to write the floppy in hfs format, copied the hd sc setup on there, no luck...As for the 7.5.3 installer, how do I mount the .smi part of the file? When I try to open it, it says it isn't recognized...Weird cause I thought it was supposed to be..

    Sorry if I'm asking so many questions...I guess the only way to learn is by asking questions!
     
  12. macrumors 6502

    havokalien

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Kelso, Wa
    #12
    Need an older Mac

    Find someone to make you some disks. HFS is not gonna work. It's a Mac file system. I'm sure for shipping and price of gas to get to the post office someone like me could do that for you.
     
  13. SirFoxx, Dec 1, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012

    thread starter macrumors regular

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    #13
    What file system do I use then? And there are literally no one in my area that has mac's this old anymore.
    The more and more I try to get this to work makes me just want to throw it away. It's old, and there is hardly any support for it anymore.

    Is there a way to reset its' PRAM without a keyboard? Cause frankly, trying over and over again with the floppies I make is just kinda depressing. . .It's the only conclusion that I can think of doing before saying the drive is bad, or I just am not making the disks correctly, which I think I am.
     
  14. macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #14
    Was the floppy you wrote the "Disk Tools" disk?

    You would need to delete the original "HD SC Setup" on the floppy you created using the "Disk Tools" image, and then copy the AUX version onto the disk.

    The floppy should have a folder named "System Folder" on it, for the 950 to be able to boot up.
     
  15. SirFoxx, Dec 1, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012

    thread starter macrumors regular

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    #15
    Yes, I even found a version that supposedly said that it would make any 68040 processor apple boot. It has the sys folder, desktop folder, disk first aid, and drive setup lite on it. I took it, snipped the first 84 bytes off of it, and copied the new image to the floppy using DD, no luck. (Side note, the Disk Tools came as a .img file)

    If I format the floppy w/hfs, make the new disk tools .img using the dd if=[Source disk image] of=[NEW IMAGE.img] bs=84 skip=1 command and the .image file, mount it, and copy the contents to the floppy, will it boot into something?
     
  16. macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #16
    Ok. Here's the deal. I suspect the DiskTools.img for 68040 that you downloaded is in fact a NDIF image file. (New Disk Image Format). You DON'T need to strip the first 84 bytes of NDIF disk images.

    NDIF (or an older DiskCopy 4.2 image with the first 84 bytes stripped) when dropped onto TextEdit should start as:

    "LK`ÜDSystemFinderMacsBugDisassembler"

    (though this is only the visible ASCII text) if it is a DiskTools disk. At least, from my tests here, both the 7.0.1 DiskTools (with 84bytes stripped) and a 68040 DiskTools.img NDIF image BOTH start this way in TextEdit.

    Oh, and you're trying to resurrect a very old computer here. Patience is certainly required. :)

    As for making your own bootable floppy, there is a little problem (potentially). A HFS bootable disk has a setting referred to as the "System Folder Pointer". When a folder with a "Finder" and "System" file are created on a HFS volume, the operating system grabs the id of the folder, and sets the "System Folder Pointer" for that volume to that particular folder. The said folder, is now considered to be "blessed". In fact, Apple still uses this in MacOS X today. What I DON'T know is if the HFS-MacFuse plugin will correctly perform this function. :confused:

    Phew. :)
     
  17. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #17
    I hope mine doesnt run out xD

    Ok...I do remember reading up on something being blessed, but never looked into it. I also read that if you have a boot disk, you can use DD to make an exact copy of the disk, and then clone it from the image...
    Code:
    http://the-penciler.blogspot.com/2009/10/of-floppy-disks-hfs-and-snow-leopard.html
    If you don't want to read it, the command to make the copy is this-

    dd if="/the path of the input file or device" of="/the path of the output file or device"

    If you have a 7.X boot disk, and make an image of it, then I would know for sure if something else is the problem. I have mentioned this several times, and no one has told me if it could be the problem. In the service manual found here: http://tim.id.au/laptops/apple/legacy/quadra_900.950.ws_95.pdf
    it has my problem on one of the pages. "During system startup, disk ejects; display shows blinking icon with flashing "x". The second solution is to zap the PRAM. (First is good disk...working on that). Could this be my problem? I just replaced the battery in it because the one I had was dead ($10 for a battery :mad:).

    Turns out that DD does format the disk in HFS w/o the help of Fusehfs (I think). My computer says the disk in unmountable, but at the same time, it mounts, and it is a folder that has a red sign w/ a negative sign in it, meaning read only...so I think that is a good thing? When I go into the floppy, I see no files, but the space has been taken up. Ugh...so many things that could cause so many problems...

    (My friend, Damian, says hi...he is from New Castle, but is doing the foreign exchange student program at our school!)
     
  18. macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #18
    This is exactly what that 68040 DiskTools.img file is. It's a disk image of a boot floppy. As I mentioned, this type of image file DOESN'T need the first 84 bytes stripped, so use dd to write it to a floppy. This IS your answer. :)

    If you've just replaced the battery, then the PRAM should have been "zapped". PRAM is volatile, and is backed-up by the battery. To be certain, remove the AC Mains power AND the battery overnight, and refit the battery the next day. That will clear the PRAM.

    That doesn't sound successful at all. Somehow, the content is being interpreted as a folder without permission to view (The red cricle with line thru). This is an OS X thing ONLY, so I can only guess that dd can't CREATE a HFS disk, BUT it CAN COPY it. :)

    I assume that's New Castle in AU? If so, hello Aussie!
     
  19. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #19
    Well you won't believe what I got to work today!!!

    [​IMG]

    I just got my keyboard today, and it turns out that the keyswitch needs to be in the "on" position, and not the lock xD (Go figure). I managed to use DD to copy the disk tools to a floppy, but not the one I need. When I use DD with a .img format (the image I need), I have alot of trouble with it mounting and such on my laptop mac. I wasn't able to test it due to what time it is currently and the fact I have to get up early for school...Will try tomorrow.... If it doesn't work, will copying the files to the floppy work? BTW, what size and power rating should the PSU fan be? Someone snagged the one off of mine, and I was going to use one that I have, if it'll work. Also, I have these 3 sticks of ram that have 32 chips on them each, I think, and are bad. Any idea what size they are? If you need a pic, I will get one tomorrow.

    Man, I love Aussie's (not in the weird way :p) You guys are sooo cool!
     
  20. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #20
    Also, when I try to open the version of Apple's SD HC installer that doesn't care what HDD you have, it gives me an error 11, which according to a site I saw, could be anything. How would I use Resedit to patch how many sectors into 'SCSI Formatter & Installer' so that it'll work?
     
  21. MacTech68, Dec 4, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012

    macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #21
    Hmm.. ok, I've created a System 7.0.1 Disk Tools disk image. It's in NDIF format (which means you DON'T have to strip 84 bytes from it).

    Basically, with an Intel Mac you can't run ResEdit. It's a classic OS application.

    I used ResEdit in Classic Mode on MacOS X 10.4.11 on PPC to patch HDSC Setup 7.3.5 per the directions. I've then used Tuxera MacFuse 2.2.1 with FuseHFS 0.1.3 under MacOS 10.6.8 to mount the original 7.0.1 Disk Tools and delete the HD SC Setup and replace it with the patched 7.3.5 version.

    Three things I noticed (as a side-note). FuseHFS does not update available disk space when you delete a file, until you un-mount and re-mount the image. Secondly, it converts read-only disk images to read-write without any choice of saving as a read-only again. It also doesn't prevent MacOS X hidden items & folders (such as .spotlight, .ds_store etc) from being created on the image file. I've done the best I could at deleting such crap, since System 7 doesn't know, nor needs them.

    Anyhow, attached is a zip of the NDIF image file. Try writing it as is to a floppy disk using dd, and see if this works. Fingers crossed. :)

    IMPORTANT NOTE: This new disk image is READ WRITE enabled - Don't mount it under MacOS X (if possible).
     

    Attached Files:

  22. SirFoxx, Dec 4, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012

    thread starter macrumors regular

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    #22
    I've had some trouble with writing .img files to diskettes...It'll show that it was successful in terminal, but says it can't mount the disk, etc. I will cross my fingers and wish for the best.

    Got it to work, just keep getting the error saying that there is no suitable SCSI Drive available....
     
  23. macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #23
    Well, like I said previously, I've had varying degrees of success with the alleged "patched" HDSC Setup.

    Can you post a nice focused pic of the SCSI drive's label and logic board?

    BTW, forgot to mention the Quadra 950 fan is mounted on the front of the gigantic power supply and blows air thru the power supply, out the back of the machine. It's a 120mm x 120mm fan, I suspect it's 12VDC. Not sure on how thick it is or the CFM. A 120mm PC case fan should work.

    Pic here:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/damianward/4809277742/
     
  24. thread starter macrumors regular

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    #24
    Here is a pic of the Logic board of the drive, i assume thats what you wanted, and the label. When it first boots up, it seems like the computer is looking on the hdd for the system, then goes to the fdd.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Sorry the pictures are so big...not sure if there was a better way of putting them on here...
     
  25. macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #25
    Cool. Now, here is something I've not done for years. I did this once and it worked.

    Try the attached disk image. I've patched it so that your model of drive is listed. HOWEVER, the list probably includes other settings for compatibility of certain models so YMMV.

    The other potential problem is that your drive is 4.5GB in size. You should partition the drive into partitions of just under 2GB each.

    See http://support.apple.com/kb/TA28860

    Cross fingers.
     

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