Report: al-Qaida Ranks Swelling Worldwide

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, May 25, 2004.

  1. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #1
    link

    gee, the war in iraq may have increased terrorism? who could have predicted it? besides me, pseudobrit et. al., of course.
     
  2. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #2
    Hmmm.... cause (invade Iraq) and effect (increase in terrorism)???? :D

    Yeah, who woulda thunk it? Besides a whole bunch of us internet jockeys that is. So the justifications for war were what again?

    WMDs? Well besides that single sarin gas shell that no one's really sure where it came from and some stuff buried since 1991, there's nothing. Most of the evidence presented to us pre-war has been discredited. Today administration officials say things like 'Now, I never said Saddam was an imminent threat.'

    Humanitarian? We kinda blew the top off that one when we let our guys take photos of violations of the GC. Sure we're better than people who behead other humans, but thats not something you want to put on your diplomatic 'resume'.

    To make the US safer? Well we seem to be having the opposite effect, our actions are of the 'one step forward and two (or three) steps backwards' variety.

    Strategic geopolitical positioning? Rumors are we just got played; conned into doing the Iranians dirty work for them. We'll see how that pans out, but geopolitics wasn't how this war was sold even if that was a neocon goal that some of us again pointed out.

    "He tried to kill mah daddy"?
     
  3. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #3
    I was kind of under the impression that most people predicted that this war would feed al-Qaida recruiting. It's so obvious it almost goes without saying: destabalize a controlling, repressive regime and create an atmosphere of chaos. Of course it's going to feed into recruitment.

    Maybe I just hang out with too many educated realists.
     
  4. wwworry macrumors regular

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    #4
    Would it be crass to wear an "I told you so" t-shirt around the RNC convention? 'cause really there were quite a lot of us predicting all this. I'm sure it will be like the first NYC protest - police state, cops beating people up and cop horses running at people just for standing on the sidewalk.
     
  5. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #5
    Before anyone gives themselves too much credit, I seem to remember the CIA making similar predictions. In fact I don't recall any credible source suggesting that the Iraq invasion would do anything to reduce the size of Al Qaida.
     
  6. wwworry macrumors regular

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    #6
    I'm not saying I invented the idea that going into Iraq was a bad idea. Lot's of people knew. But that doesn't mean we can't rub it in a little. It's important to let the political-powers-that-be know when they are stupid.
     
  7. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #7
    Personally, I especially would like to rub it in considering how many times I was shut down last year for daring to suggest that the beloved President of the United States was not infallible. :eek:

    How dare I!
     
  8. Spizzo macrumors 6502

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    #8
    Yeah...But now we have access to much more oil...... :confused:

    I'm moving to Ireland!!!
     
  9. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #9
    Which of course brings us back to the idiocy of this War in the first place. That it did not address our real threat, and as this thread mentions, exacerbated it...it seems amazing that this fact still escapes so many people. If a dog **** in my yard, if I wanted to punish it, I probably wouldn't go kick the cat...even if I was able to convince my family that it was indeed the dog.

    (ok, I admit my analogies need work...you get the idea)
     
  10. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #10
    Going after the world's supply of peat?
     
  11. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #11
    There was a report drawn up by the UK intelligence services prior to war which predicted just such an outcome - an increased risk of international terrorism following a war in Iraq..

    That report was kept secret from the public, I can only assume, because it did not fit in with the rush to war. Every other bit of "intelligence" which supported the case for war was printed, published and trumpeted from the rooftops (almost all now discredited).

    The latest mantra from GW & TB is to say "let's go from here, not from some ideal starting point". Well, I for one am going to be around saying "If you'd listened to all the arguments and acted on all the evidence, as you were morally obliged to do, WE WOULDN'T BE STARTING FROM HERE, you idiots!"

    PS My posts will be thin on the ground for a few weeks; I'll check in when I can (dial-up!). Don't think I've gotten tired, and while I'm away don't cut the war appologists any slack!!
     
  12. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #12
    You don't win against terrorism by giving in to it.
    Giving in to terrorist is in fact allowing them to win so even if the battle gets bigger you can't. The only answer to terrorist is death. So the whether or not Al-Qaeda got bigger the answer is not do what the terrorist tells us to do. You do not defend against terrorist by kissing their butts. The world should be united at killing them.
     
  13. Zaid macrumors 6502

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    #13
    dunno why i'm wasting my time ...

    The point is that its not just a matter of killing every single terrorist, if your actions simply alienate more people into becoming the next generation of terrorists.

    when US actions result in a 10 year old girl saying "Americans killed my father, why shouln't i kill Americans?" -- daughter of one of the vicitms of the wedding masacre -- then your actions are just being counter-productive.

    It's not just a matter of killing the terrorists. It's removing the reason for their existance.
     
  14. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #14
    Examples, Voltron. Examples. Arguments are made by offering examples and making points with them. (Consider, if you will, 1886 Haymarket riots in America and the 1860s 'People's Will' movement in Tsarist Russia...)

    Also, the insistance that there is one answer to any problem is simpleminded. A sensible strategy would procede on multiple fronts: reduce the number of active terrorists by combatting them directly, reduce the number of future terrorists by persuading those who are not terrorists not to become terrorists. The equation of the Iraq occupation obviously fails on the latter point.
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    But it sounds so good to say 'let's kill the all.' :rolleyes:
     
  16. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #16
    One has to wonder if -- instead of invading Iraq, we'd spent the same amount of effort putting more soldiers into hunting al-Queda in Afghanistan and more CIA intelligence into shutting down other terrorist cells in Europe and elsewhere -- we'd have less al-Qaeda membership instead of more.
     
  17. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #17
    They would all move back to Iraq.
     
  18. numediaman macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    Yes, the war has been quite a blessed event for those who support Al-Qaeda. Now comes the second part: will Iraq (or parts of it) be turned into an Islamic state similar to either Iran, or worse, Afghanistan under the Taliban?

    Here is one of the first accounts I've seen of the conditions in Fallujah since the US let the militants retain control:

    Fallujah slides toward Islamic state
    'We shall only accept God's law,' cleric says

    By HAMZA HENDAWI
    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

    FALLUJAH, Iraq - With U.S. Marines gone and central government authority virtually nonexistent, Fallujah resembles an Islamic mini-state. Anyone caught selling alcohol is flogged and paraded in the city. Men are encouraged to grow beards and barbers are warned against giving "Western" hair cuts.

    "After all the blood that was shed, and the lives that were lost, we shall only accept God's law in Fallujah," said cleric Abdul-Qader al-Aloussi, offering a glimpse of what a future Iraq may look like as the U.S.-led occupation draws to a close. "We must capitalize on our victory over the Americans and implement Islamic sharia laws."

    The departure of the Marines under an agreement that ended the three-week siege last month has enabled hard-line Islamic leaders to assert their power in this once-restive city 30 miles west of Baghdad.

    Some were active in defending the city against the Marines and have profited by a perception - both here and elsewhere in Iraq - that the mujahedeen, or Islamic holy warriors, defeated a superpower.

    Under the agreement, the Marines handed security in the city to a new Fallujah Brigade made up largely of local residents and commanded by officers of Saddam Hussein's former army.

    With the departure of the Marines, the position of the U.S.-appointed civil administration has been weakened in favor of the clerics and the mujahedeen who resisted the U.S. occupation. That is a pattern that could be repeated elsewhere in Iraq after the occupation ends June 30, unless other legitimate leaders come forward to replace those tainted by association with the occupation.

    Fallujah, which calls itself the "City of Mosques," provides the religious fundamentalists with fertile ground for wielding power. The city's estimated 300,000 residents are known for their religious piety.

    Women rarely appear in public and when they do, they are covered from head to toe in accordance with Islam's strict dress code for women. The lives of men revolve around Islam's tradition of praying five times a day.

    Unlike other Iraqi cities, Fallujah has never allowed liquor stores. Its famous kebab restaurants have prayer rooms, an unusual feature in most Muslim nations. Many of its adult male population wear beards, a hallmark of religious piety.

    However, steps taken by the mujahedeen over the past month have gone beyond simply encouraging piety.

    On Sunday, for example, scores of masked mujahedeen, shouting "Allahu Akbar," or "God is Great," paraded four men stripped down to their underpants atop the back of a pickup that drove through the city. Their bare backs were bleeding from 80 lashes they had received as punishment for selling alcohol. They were taken to a hospital where they were treated and released.

    Residents said a man found intoxicated last week was flogged, held overnight and released the next day.

    Fallujah's women hair stylists shut down their shops several months ago after repeated attacks blamed on Muslim militants . . .​
     
  19. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #19
    They wern't from Iraq. Haven't you been paying any attention? Where did the 9/11 hijackers come from? Were there any Iraqis on those airplanes? How about on the boat that bombed the USS Cole? Tanzania? The first WTC attack? Indonesia?

    So the question is, are you really that ignorant, or are you just trolling?
     
  20. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #20
    which answer will lead to your use of the ignore feature?
     
  21. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #21
    Just wanted to note, so we don't forget, the President's own advisor on terrorism did predict precisely this outcome in the days following 9/11, when Rumsfeld and others were advocating launching the invasion of Iraq. Of course, ol' Georgie knew better. He knew this was a war against terrorism in his "guts" - obviously a more reliable indicator, because everyone who knew it from actual experience in the region or through long study told him differently.
     
  22. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #22
    This is a Catch 22. Either we abandon all policies that they (terrorists) oppose, or we have to kill them. BUT, if we kill them, in the process we justify their existance. The only way is through overwhelming force. Make them affraid to do anything.
     
  23. screener macrumors newbie

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    Apr 29, 2004
    #23
    It's already personal isn't it?
    They aren't afraid of dying or haven't you noticed.
    Fine mess the U.S. got itself led into.
    And there's a chance the same bunch will get re-elected.
    Bush still gets points for his leadership in the war on terror?
    Strange.
     
  24. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #24
    Hasn't Isreal been trying this policy for years...the problem with the overwhelming force/fear factor, is that when people are willing to die for their beliefs (suicide bombing etc), I think it is safe to say that they would not really be afraid of anything...extreme ideological positions (especially those promising eternal salvation) are remarkably resilient to whatever is thrown at them...the only hope it would seem is to discredit or provide a more attractive ideology to replace the current one. The ideology is the root of the problem, and no matter how many "terrorists" are killed, if the root is intact (and as an abstract ideology, it is impervious to weaponry), new ones will take their places...a lot like weeds in the garden.
    Decent, patient intelligence (not our strong suit thus far), and surgical, precision strikes against small (or individual) targets, coupled with a more even-handed policy towards Isreal, support for a Palestianian State and the rights of self-determination of Iraq (and the rest of the ME) seems like a decent policy to me. The Iranian populace is already pro-American (in terms of wanting opportunity and the trappings of capitalism), and given time, much of the region may follow. Seems cynical to say, but for all its' faults, capitalism might be a fine ideology to take the wind out of the terrorists' sails and ideological foundation.
     
  25. screener macrumors newbie

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    Apr 29, 2004
    #25
    Voltron

    Aren't you mimicking the right wing pro war stuff that's been
    discredited? The terrorists didn't come from Iraq. They were
    based in Afghanistan, This was a good war, get them on home
    turf. Don't get distracted by Iraq.
    Don't say stuff that can be proven false.
    And don't believe what you want to here because you may miss
    something important like, Hannity, Coulter and the like have
    an agenda as well as some left wingers.
    The truth is somewhere in the middle and once you figure that out
    you'll be thinking for yourself.
     

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