sammy sosa

Discussion in 'Community' started by jxyama, Jun 4, 2003.

  1. macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #1
    i'm not going to pass a judgement and assume people here don't follow sports. :D

    what do you think of sammy's explanation for the corked bat?

    i personally believe him... with the strength and force he swings the bat, if he had always used corked bats, i find it hard to believe that none of them shattered until yesterday.

    is it just me or one thing that would help clarify the situation would be to confiscate all of his bats and scrutinize them for the evidence of corking?
     
  2. macrumors 65816

    Foxer

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    #2
    He's lying.

    I've heard too many people with experience point out today that even the worst hitters know every inch of thier bats. They can tell the difference between a 32 and 34 ounce bat immediately. (not that hard. I worked in the mail room at college for a summer and, by the end, could accurately estimate the weight of letters for postage purposes.) He knew exactly what bat he had.

    Anyway, it seems to strech credibility that on the ONE time in his career when he accidentally picked up the wrong bat it breaks on him. What awful luck, Sammy.

    Oh. And what happened to the barrell of the bat? Someone at Wrigley "misplaced" it...

    For certain, though, he'll never use again. So if he goes out and hits 50 home runs next year, I'll shut up. But if he only hits 25...

    I admit that I never liked Sosa, but I think logic is on my side on this one. Unrelated (or maybe it is), has anyone else noticed how much smaller he is this year. The year they instituted random drug tests....

    They did confisacte all his bats, though. It'll be interesting. They should break open the ones he sent to the Hall of Fame from the '98 season, too.
     
  3. thread starter macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #3
    ah, yes... you bring up good points.

    he should definitely have known better, that's definitely true. if someone changed the system fonts on my Mac by 3 point sizes, I would know, right? :p

    not sure if hall would be willing to break open the bat from 98, but they can probably x-ray it or something...

    it's unfortunate. i never followed sammy, i personally like dominating and/or crafty pitchers and great contact "hitters" (ichiro - japanese bias a bit, edgar martinez, tony gwynn) better than sluggers, but i liked his image as a "good" ballplayer.
     
  4. macrumors 65816

    strider42

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    #4
    I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. While its true that many ball players could tell the difference in weight when comparing two bats, I'm not sure its as easy as you say. This was, afterall, the first inning. He hadn't been using another bat in a game situation to compare it with that day.

    Also, the difference in weight may not have been that much. ESPN showed a segment where buck showalter showed how to cork a bat. the difference when he was done was about 1 ounce, if that. It may not be a whole lot of weight difference, maybe close enough to mistake. People can make mistakes. and from the sounds of it, there wasn't a lot of cork in there.

    And as for it breaking being a coincidence, I don't think thats particularly far fetched either. If it was his batting practice bat, it wouldn't have been sued as hard or facing the harder pitching from a game. The moment its used in a more stressful situation it breaks. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

    I don't think there's enough evidence to damn the damn. He's been very up front, not hiding from the media about it. He could be lying, but like I said, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

    oh, and as far as the steriods thing goes, I don't think thats conclusive either. Is he really that much smaller, if at all. Looks about the same to me. Could be he's not quite as cut anymore, but that could just be from getting a bit older and not hitting the weights as hard.

    If any of this is proved otherwise, I'll be the first to say he's a cheat and bad for baseball, but without more proof against a guy who has lead an honorable career overall, I won't judge him.
     
  5. Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #5
    Yeah, it's certainly a let down to think that someone who was in the thick of the HR race got caught using a corked bat.

    We'll see what happens with the investigation.
     
  6. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    #6
    He uses the bat during batting practice for the fans. So, I guess he has more then one bat to get used to therefore providing validity to his 'not knowing which bat he had'.

    Secondly, why would he need it? ESPN already noted that some chump with a corked bat is not going to hit 60 HRs or have his total for his carer. So, why would he purposely use a corked bat? That's like McGuire using a corked bat, or Tiger using a laced golf ball, or Jordan using springs in his shoes.

    Why? Why would he use a corked bat? That's exactly why I believe him.
     
  7. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    #7
    A corked bat is not going to magically make 60 balls fly over the wall. It might add a few to your overall yearly total but it's not going to make you a home run hitter if you are not already a home run hitter.
     
  8. thread starter macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #8
    just as a side... it's far from an established fact that a corked bat helps to hit a ball further... it might be more of a mental gimmick...

    dunno, i don't think this will discredit sammy's numbers. like many people posted, you can't get numbers like sammy's just by using corked bats. however, this will definitely discreit much of adoration sammy was able to command as a "good" ballplayer and a person.
     
  9. macrumors 65816

    Foxer

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    #9
    My understanding is that it will add about 5 to 10 feet of distance. Over the course of the year, that is not insignificant. Especially if you already have Warning Track Power. If it doesn't add anything to your stroke 1)why is it illegal, and 2)why do players try to get around the illegality?

    For Sammy to say he didn't know what bat he had on is like me saying that I didn't know which clothes I wore to work this morning. It just doesn't wash. If indeed he has corked bats to use in BP (which would be stupid. the whole point of BP is to get ready for the game), you'd think he'd mark them better to avoid just this event.

    Regardless of whether this was a one-time thing or a pattern of abuse all his stats are now tainted. EVERY time we see him hit a homer, in the back of our minds, we'll wonder. That's not good the game.

    By the by, I think there is a great deal of rush to defend Sosa b/c he is seen as a likable guy. Just becasue he smiles and never says anything. What if it were Barry Bonds. We'd have already burried him and stripped of his records.
     
  10. Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #10
    Well, in a race where a guy beats you a few it makes a big difference. ;)
     
  11. pEZ
    macrumors 6502

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    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    #11
    As a Chicago native, I can't possibly believe any of it unless he's proven guilty. I know so many people in and around my neighborhood that see him as a role model - it would be earth-shattering if he were a cheat.

    If Sammy did in fact cork the bat, I would be inconsolably ashamed for my city - I don't want that.
     
  12. macrumors 65816

    strider42

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    #12
    its illegal and players do it sometimes because people think/assume it makes a difference. not because anything has been proven. You are after all trading off the mass behind the stroke in order to gain a bit of velocity. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a corked bat resulted in more balls in play (because the bat speed is quicker), but not necessarily more power. I'm no physics major, but without a real scientific study (which has never been done to my knowledge). You really think people need proof of something in order to think it helps. Is there any proof ephedra works? or creatine? or herbal remedies, etc, etc, etc. People use them because of anecdotal evidence, because it makes some sort of sense to them. Not because it actually does what they say it will.
     
  13. macrumors 65816

    Foxer

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    #13
    There have been many scientific studies that show that it is bat speed that generates power. That's why a fastball going 95 mph is much more likely to be hit out (assuming you can catch up to it)than a piece of off-speed junk floating in at 70 mph. Anything that results in a greater combined speed when ball meets wood will increase distance.

    Prior to these tests (the first were done in the 40's), it was assumed that bat weight was the determining factor. That's why Babe Ruth and his ilk toted these ridiculous 40 oz bats around.
     
  14. macrumors 65816

    strider42

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    #14
    Not to be contrary, but what does a 95 mph fast ball have to do with bat speed. You can swing at the same speed at a ball thats 75 as you can at a ball thats 95. its all about timing. Ever see a hanging curve ball going in the mid 80's get launched out of a stadium. I would think there's a relation there. if you could increase bat speed and keep weight up, power would go up. If you could increase the weight without changing bat speed, power would go up. Since those two things are impossible, you have to find a happy medium, a point on the graph where there two intersect to create the most power. hence the lower bat weight of today. Also, bats today are differently shaped, with very thin handles. All the weight is pushed into the barrel for maximum force. This is another reason bats have been able to shrink (and not to mention why they break a lot mroe often. You think it would be conceivable for Roy Hobbs in the natural to have played witht he same bat all year if it was one of today's bats). So its obviously not as simple as bat speed. Do aluminium bats actually travel farther than wood bats. i don't know. And if they do, how much of that has to do with the power transferring properties of metal v. wood (or in the major leagues, maple bats v. traditional ash bats). Its a very complicated equation.

    Like I said, I'm no physics major, but I don't think there have been as many real scientific studies as people think. ESPN was reporting the no one knows if corking a bat makes it go farther, and I would think their fact checkers and research department would have been able to find something if it was there. They and I could be wrong, but can someone actually point to a study.

    Consider also other sports. In tennis, pete sampras, one of the fastest servers on tour back in the day, used an insanely heavy raquet. faster severs don't use lighter equipment. Or in golf, drivers are heavy clubs, not light ones (though they have gotten around that to a certain degree by increasing swing speed using flexible shafts and longer handles) If I use the same shaft and used a machine to keep swing speed the same, whats going to go further, a heavier club or a lighter club. Thats what needs to be done, tests using machines with bats made of the same material and of the same dimensions, if you want to actually haev an answer. I know of no such tests.
     
  15. macrumors 6502a

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    Tampa
    #15
    Having played varsity baseball in highschool just a few years ago I can say that considering that corking the bat reduces its weight by an about an ounce it's not that unlikely that he really didn't know that he was using his corked bat. The only way you can really notice an ounce difference is if you're actively thinking about it. Even if it did seem lighter to him when he went up to bat he might have attributed it to adrenaline. This bat surely looked just like his other bats and I'm willing to think he could have slipped up.

    I think this will cause severe damage to his reputation, but I think we should wait and see if they find anything in those other bats. If they don't I would be inclined to believe his story, but I would still have to take into account that he was in a bit of a slump and I wouldn't put it past any major league player to go to such lengths to gain an edge.

    Matt
     
  16. macrumors 604

    MrMacMan

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2001
    Location:
    1 Block away from NYC.
    #16
    The corked bat doesn't give you what you people are describing... instead of a 400 ft HR you might get a 410.

    He HAD, and HAS used this bat it practice to zip the balls far and fast into the crowd, these are normally for show, but his reason is BS.

    Every player execpt Mo Vaughn knows how heavy their bat is.

    'I was becoming more and more tired, and then one day I weighted my bat and low and behold it was 4 ounces heavier'

    That is Mo's Story.... :confused:

    Pretty dumb...
     
  17. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #17
    Do the pros warm up with ring weights on their bats? I know that can throw off your perception of weight. In hockey, I warm up with a heavy wood stick with three pucks taped to the back of the blade, then bring out my Synergy for the game. It's like holding nothing.
     
  18. macrumors 65816

    strider42

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    #18
    yes they do. As you say, it throws off weight perception. Joe morgan, a hall of famer, has a thing on ESPN.com where he mentions in so many words how its possibly to not notice the weight. You know, I'll take it from real ball players, who know how easy it is to not know something is 1 ounce lighter than something you havent even picked up that day. Anyone who thinks a major leaguer could, without comaprison, tell if an identicle bat is 1 ounce lighter or not with absolute certainty, after warming up and going to bat in a real game, is just making up reasons to crucify a man with absolutely no proof of any intentional wrong doing.

    incidentally, they checked out 77 other bats of his today, nary a piece of cork found. That doesn't make him innocent, but certainly, nothing has been presented to show that what he says happened didn't.
     
  19. macrumors G3

    QCassidy352

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    #19
  20. macrumors 65816

    Foxer

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    #20
    A 95 mph fastball results in faster impact speed. Just like two cars that hit head on, there's more energy resulting between faster moving objects.

    Think about it. It makes sense.
     
  21. macrumors 65816

    Foxer

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    Location:
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    #21
    Because his real bats are at the bottom of Lake Michigan.


    sorry about the successive posts.
     
  22. macrumors 68040

    tazo

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    Pacific Northwest, Seattle, WA actually
    #22
    And pretty soon the ACLU will get involved and say that they are confiscating his bats because he is hispanic.


    -tazo
     
  23. thread starter macrumors 68040

    jxyama

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2003
    #23
    the kinetic energy generated by the bat is proportional to the mass of the bat and square of the speed. (KE=1/2 m v^2) this is the reason why bats are getting lighter. it's much more beneficial to increase the speed than to increase the mass. when the bat hits the ball, this energy is transfered to the ball.

    consequently, more energy carried by the ball (since each ball has the same mass, faster the pitch, more energy), more energy is available to carry the ball. so faster pitches do travel further if hit by the same bat swung at the same speed.

    because the rest of his bats checked out, i believe sammy more now. they are also considering going to the hall of fame to x-ray 5 bats he donated there, including ones from 1998 when he was racing mcgwire and earlier this year when sammy hit his 500th.
     
  24. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #24
    I know that was just a joke, but do you have any idea of the work that the ACLU really does on a daily basis (other than get made fun of for the "silly" cases that make it in the headlines or have jokes made about them)? Would you make fun of the Anti-Defamation League?
     
  25. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #25
    Might there also be something about the mechanics of the bat being hollow (the walls transferring energy differently than a solid stick)?
     

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