Schoolgirl wins Muslim gown case

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by edesignuk, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. edesignuk Moderator emeritus

    edesignuk

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    London, England
    #1
    Full.

    This REALLY narks me :mad: Schools have school uniform, everyone has to wear it. Why the hell should she be any different just because of her god damn religion :mad: :mad: If she wants to wear it then she can feel free to leave and no back to a county where this is the uniform.

    I have nothing against the religion, but I see absolutely no reason why a school should have to adapt round a foreign religion, and give one pupil exclusive right to wear something other than what is the hard and fast rule for everyone else.

    This is one of many things that seem to be happening where we are supposed to flex around imigrants and their ways. If they want to live here, fine, I will not adjust around them.

    :mad: :mad: :mad:

    This is bound to get political one way or another, so in here rather than current events.
     
  2. iGav macrumors G3

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2002
    #2
    Kinda sums up how I feel about it.

    Schools have uniforms for a reason, and there's a reason why it's called a 'uniform' :rolleyes:
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    toronto
    #3
    w/o picking sides, i do see an irony.

    both the school and the faith dictate what one is to wear. the plaintiff took issue with one, but accepted the other.
     
  4. redeye be macrumors 65816

    redeye be

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    #4
    Actually muslim women are not dictated by faith to wear it. They have to choose to. In practise however this is often different.

    I don't like uniforms and i feel ppl are allowed to wear what they like. Okay, i'm sometimes starteled if a woman in burka walks by, but who am i to say she can't.
    Emancipating the women is far more important. That way they should be able to all choose for themselfs.

    This is a very complex subject. If the school allows the 'foulard' they should allow others to wear 'headgear' as well.
     
  5. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    #5
    While I agree with the school in this case, I have some problems with the idea that Islam is a "foreign religion" or that the UK is somehow more your country than the young woman involved in the case. Either the UK, and the US for that matter, are democratic states that respect the culture and religious beliefs of all their citizens or we are masquerading under the facade of democracy and civil rights to promote the beliefs and culture of those in power. I know the latter to be more and more true here. It only fuels the xenophobia of those who want to impose their culture on others in a democratic society to talk about how those who don't agree with you "are free to leave." In the US we have too many people who use such sentiments to increase hatred and fear towards people who are "different."

    Having said all of that, I think public schools (by which I mean the US definition of "public" or state run institutions) have every right and legitimate interests in promoting an educational culture of equality. While I've never liked dress codes (they were used here for absurd reasons) I can see how in an attempt to keep religious differences out of the classroom they can be a legitimate tool. I hope you have a higher court that can overturn this short-sighted decision.

    P.S. - it is always interesting to see how English and American slang differs - "narks" means something totally different on this side of the Atlantic.

    ;)
     
  6. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #6
    Extremely well said, although I'm still not thoroughly convinced that this was the wrong decision.
     
  7. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #7
    yeah but all tolerance and respect to a certain level please... even here i naustria it gets overhead soemtimes..like it happend in our school..we didn't have an alternative ethical lectures(instead of 'religion' for the catholics and evangelics) for muslims so the muslim pupils (which were rare a few years ago) simply got those 1-2 hours off and not only that..the female ones were able to get an exception of sports education when older than 14 or something (3-4 hours a week) etc.
    we had only one girl who 'wanted to wear a headscarf' (and never wanted to go out in the evening and only was allowed visits by girls ...)

    in the class of my brother about all muslims are taking the advantage of those 1-2 hours of because of their religion...

    i have nothing against the islam or any other religion but i hate it when somebody plays the 'religion' card to get off something he doesn't want to do ... heck ... i have personal muslim friends who think the same

    (other example: untill 5-7 years ago as a muslim you could get around the mandatory conscription service and even the alternativehospital etc. service for those who didn't want to fire guns... but the austrian army quickly foudn a countermeasure with founding a 'muslim only' unit in vienna..suddenly numbers dropped because many didn't wanted to go so 'far away' from their family )
     
  8. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #8
    My fear is that some of the rhetoric in this thread borders on implicit hostility and xenophobia.
     
  9. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    Jul 4, 2004
    #9
    A sizable and influential view amongst the political classes here is that the UK educational authorities would never have gone to the same lengths as the French head-scarf ban.
     
  10. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #10
    or like the head scarf ban in Turkey ... ;)

    edit: a friend of our family is turkish and lives still there... and is coments about the people who are fighting _for_ headscarfs aren't nice..
     
  11. whocares macrumors 65816

    whocares

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    #11
    It's not a head-scarf ban; well at least in principles. French law prohibits all religious and political signs in school. The idea is obviously to try to leave to all religious/political differences out of school, and set everybody off with a maximum amount of 'equality' (one the core values of the French Republic).


    Unfortunately this law (and it's recent amendment) is often perceived as being an anti-scard, anti-muslim law. This is moslty due to 1) the fact that the head-scarf is one the most visible religious signs around; and 2) historically complex relations between France and North African countries (ex-colonies).


    I for one am all for a strict application of this law. Not that I have issues with Islam, but because school is a place where religion has nothing to do (IMHO) and fathers/families often use their daughters (+ scraf) as a means of defying the State. They are however most welcome to create private schools alongside the private Christian schools where they would be free to dress as wished, and should receive some financial help from the State to do so.
     
  12. amnesiac1984 macrumors 6502a

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    Europe
    #12
    I don't think we should be looking for too much equality in schools or all our kids will become identical even more than they are now. Anyway what does clothing have to do with equality?

    I think the issue here is not that she needs to wear a particular kind piece of clothing, but she needs to wear one that covers her completely, and that is an important part of her religion. I'm sorry but if she requires that then so be it, what's the big deal?

    On the other hand, I heard this news on BBC Radio 4 and they had a Muslim on who expressed his concern about the people who put this girl up to it. She was 'prepared' by a group of fundamentalist muslims, which to me was quite evident in the way she spoke to the press. Although she did have a valid point about the "atmosphere that has been created in Western societies post 9/11, an atmosphere in which Islam has been made a target for vilification in the name of the 'war on terror'," It seemed like the whole case was a good excuse to get some payback and some press about this issue. (which is fair enough i suppose).
     
  13. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    Location:
    San Francisco
    #13
    As I said in my first post, I think most dress codes are stupid. Growing up, dress codes meant corporal punishment for boys who had shirt tails hanging out, and the same for girls who wore their skirts too high or patent leather shoes, and all kinds of other nonsensical notions of what was right and wrong to wear. As a result much of my generation rebelled against such ideas and wore our hair long and patched our blue jeans as a matter of pride. It all seems silly now.

    None of that means that dress codes can't play a positive role. For anyone with kids who can't afford the latest sneakers or the new fad in jackets or sweaters, the use of uniforms can be a wonderful thing. It is much harder to pigeon hole the poorer kids if everyone wears the same thing. There are also many urban schools that have gone to the use of uniforms as a way to combat gangs. It is a way to stop kids from wearing the gang's "colors." In such instances, I have to get over my old prejudice against dress codes and say they can make some sense.

    Of course none of this deals with the real issue here, that of the use of dress codes to eliminate the identification of children by religion. I think schools have no business in promoting religion because such practices inevitably lead to situations that divide kids from kids. Just think if this was a group of kids whose parents decide that they must wear a large crucifix outside their clothing or the sign of the cross on their jackets. How long before we have kids from minority religions or non-believers ostracized from the majority? Schools have a responsibility to show no favorites in religion, in that regard this is a question of equality. It is a private sphere of life that must be left up to the individual, not state institutions. For such purposes, uniforms that do not allow for religious expression make a lot of sense. If a family's beliefs are such that they cannot allow their child to go to a school that have these regulations, then private religious institutions are always an option.
     

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