scott ritter: The US war with Iran has already begun

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, Jun 20, 2005.

  1. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #1
    link

     
  2. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    Well its no Secret they want the Bomb . The Russian Power Plant is designed for making fuel for their weapons while producing power. Sorry maybe when you guys grow up in a few hundred years but for now the answer is no. Shut it down or we will shut it down for you. Give up that stupid plant,nukes,and terrorism and i say lets open up the trade to everyone. Keep with the Nukes and you will be taught a lesson.............. Iam a Realist! :D Iran cant be allowed to have the Bomb. Period.
     
  3. Peterkro macrumors 68020

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  4. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    Better then blind land where people sit around while they build the bomb and then wonder afterwards what they can do about it.
     
  5. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #5
    You mean like how Iran sat around while the US developed a bomb, then had to figure out what to do about it?

    Would you destroy your gun if your neighbor was holding a gun on you but promised never to use it?
     
  6. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #6
    "Of course not. That's different".
     
  7. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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  8. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    Come on Mactastic, that cat is out of the bag. The U.S. by dropping this horrible weapon knows its something that shouldnt ever be used again. We are the world police like it or not. Its up to us to make sure that they ( Nukes) are on the decline, not upswing. As someone who was "around" these things let me tell you the world needs less of them not more. Its up to us to turn this thing around. It aint going to come from China nor Iran. Thats the Facts. Its up to us and our Allies to turn it around. China is a slacker with N.Korea but George is making it hard.
     
  9. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #9
    I flatly don't trust Bush to know that. I think Bush would nuke NK if they crossed the line right now because we have no other game plan at this point.

    And as for the cat, why would anyone anywhere give up a weapon that would put it on par with the US? Get real. No country is going to give up going after something that other people are allowed to have. The only way to look another nation's people in the eye and tell them to give up the bomb is if you are willing to do it yourself. Put yourself in any other leader's position. Would you give up on the one thing that would defend your people and your power?

    We AREN'T the world police. We can't afford to be, we have no right to be, and I don't think the American people want that role (although I'd surely admit that if you phrase the question differently they would gladly patrol the world beat... for a while anyway.) But regardless, you have to admit that America is going to put it's interests first in it's globo-cop role. And you can't expect a person to stand for someone else's interests being put over theirs. You wouldn't stand for it, and neither would I.

    We could start by declining our own stock. But will we? No, we're building more WMDs.

    I believe you. We certainly do need less nukes, not more. But it's just realpolitik to realize that asking someone to give up pursuit of a nuke without pledging to eliminate our own stock. Until we are willing to do that, no real progress will be made.

    Look at the Cold War. It was considered weak to unilaterally give up one's nukes, so it had to happen in a way that gave neither one an advantage - we'll destroy one if you do. That was the only acceptable way to go, and it was recognized as such. Yet somehow you expect other's to do what neither the Soviets nor the US were willing to do themselves. It's just not gonna happen.
     
  10. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

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    Unless Iran was just Michael Jackson insane, they would not even consider using nuclear weapons against the US. Nuclear weapons are meant to deter nuclear war through the assurance of mutual destruction. Iran cannot possibly match the US in military power.

    The US has been covertly acting against Iran for decades though and they are looking to protect themselves. If we had left them alone, I am sure that we would not have been in this situation.

    However, the US insists upon continuing to consume energy (oil based) in excessive amounts without seeking alternatives. The Oil industry has had way too much influence in our energy policy for way too long and it really isn't necessary anymore, especially with the problems that are arising from having to secure new sources of oil.

    $230 Billion dollars could have easily been enough to have made fuel cell technology a near future reality. And/or brought many other forms of alternative energy producing methods into fruition.

    But that would not working in the interests of the Oil industry.
     
  11. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #11
    but what about israel?
     
  12. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

    Xtremehkr

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    #12
    Israel has been where it is for a long time now, and has even expanded.

    I think that the same rules apply, Israel is more than capable of leveling anyone who launches a nuclear attack against them. Plus they have the support of the US.

    Though, they are not exactly innocent when it comes to agitating those around them.
     
  13. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #13
    sorry, my post was ambiguous. i meant that i'd always thought that any plans iran has for nukes was meant as a deterrent against, or a threat to, israel.

    i may be wrong about this, but i thought i'd read that iran has longrange missiles capable of carrying such a payload and reaching israel.
     
  14. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    The last thing the American people wanted was to be world police. Remember WW1,WW2,Cold War,,,,,,Saddam,,,many others. The role fell in our laps because no one else could or would do it. Thats reality. We didnt want it but the politicians well that is another story. We still cannot let the proliferation of these horrible weapons period. Thats the Black and white. Iran has to be stopped and so does anyone else. Play time is over..............then ask yourself now or later? i say now and so would a lot of others. Unlike our European friends we learned from WW1,WW2.....appeasment is the same as doing nothing. We did nothing with Korea. And i dont want to hear about that one inspector in N.Korea watching the whole country while they were building the Bomb. Idiots, excuse me Politicians. Clinton and Bush get a F for Failure.
     
  15. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

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    But it would be suicide, we would be in Tehran faster than they could yell Osama Bin Laden.
     
  16. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #16
    to use it, yes. but nukes make great deterrents.
     
  17. Peterkro macrumors 68020

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    #17
    The U.S is the problem with Nuclear proliferation,they refuse to even negotiate on reduction so Russia is loath to do it unilaterially.Iran is surrounded by nuclear cabable countries.India,China,Pakistan,Israel,Russia and can see only possesion of the weapons acts as a deterrent to U.S. lawlessness,see the situations and how they differ in North Korea and Iraq.If the U.S and Russia start to disarm then they may have some right to pressurise other countries to do so but not before.The U.S. has already used them(to prevent Russia gaining control of Japan) and by every logic the most likely to do so again.
     
  18. amnesiac1984 macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    The real world police (UN) was doing a fine job with Saddam, they even made him destroy all his weapons, Iran are having elections, the people are opening up to the world they want to gain relations, they don't want to be attacked by Team America. Lets hope the downing street stuff will lead to an impeachment before bush really goes too far.
     
  19. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    No the reality is that the US has consistently undermined the one body that could legitimately claim to be the world's police. It is folly to think that the authority of the US will be considered valid by everyone else. As the Iraqis have proved, anytime there is a pile of weapons and a desire to harass the invaders, you can't control the country. The US couldn't possibly begin to patrol enough of the world to stop nuclear proliferation by force. It would require a draft and a wartime budget at the very least.

    I disagree. Under Clinton's administration NK was still pursuing nukes, but it was known about and it was uranium they were working with. The plutonium remained under seal until after Bush took office and escalated the situation to the point that the inspectors were thrown out and the plutonium storage seals (which the UN were monitoring) were broken. Now NK, while still years away from producing a uranium bomb, are in possesion of a couple to several plutonium bombs. See, plutonium is easily converted to bomb material, while uranium isn't. Because Bush doesn't understand that difference the way Clinton did, we are now faced with a nuclear armed NK.

    Perhaps we can initiate a WMD buyback program. ;)
     
  20. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    Mactastic i love your Democratic spin, so partisan its amazing. N.K. was building the bomb right under the Clintons administrations & U.N noses. When Bush came in it made them beat their chest and admit they had broken all that paperwork :rolleyes: I know Bush is the root of all evil in the world for you but lets stop the spin. What was the U.N. doing while N.Korea was getting the bomb? oh yeah the one inspector :rolleyes: Please the U.S has no confidence in the U.N. Just look at the scandals. Meanwhile Iran is working on it. What do you do Mactastic? close your eyes? ignore it and it goes away? Pretend it doesnt exist ? Encourage everyone to have one?
     
  21. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    No I encourage no one to have one. And it is not partisan spin to say that Clinton did a better job at containing the NK threat than Bush. You should know me well enough to know I'm no Democratic advocate.

    And where do you get this 'One inpector rolleyes' thing? There were cameras monitoring the entrance to each storage facility 24/7. There were seals on the door from the UN itself. I find references to a 'team' from the IAEA being kicked out. The material was known about and contained.

    This will give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Yes it's slanted left and the guy obviously doesn't like Bush much, but the timeline is important and he lays it out well.

    This seems important:
    The NK threat was fairly well contained when Clinton left office. Perfect? No. Better than Bush? Most def. Yes they were pursuing it covertly still, but that's to be expected isn't it? I would imagine the US has a few 'black' labs where extra-legal weapons are investigated. The trick is to make the process so onerous that it is detected early on (like uranium enrichment would be) and the international community can step in to pressure the country's leaders. If that doesn't work more aggressive steps can be taken. But the process takes so long that everyone has time to deal with it. Plutonium enrichment blows all that out of the water.
     
  22. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    Thanks for the answer and i agree clinton was better but what about Iran. we do nothing or do we do something? The world must engage Iran and its desire for Nukes. Its not like little surrounded Israel is just going to attack these guys but thats the spin. I dont see anyone knocking on Irans door except us if they dont drop the program.
     
  23. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #23
    There are no good answers. But until we're working to eliminate nukes, not just prevent those that don't have them from getting them, we won't get far IMO.

    Plus, someday I forsee people being able to make nukes pretty easily. The technology is already spreading pretty fast. It's not going to be countries that will be the threat, it will be groups or individuals with no country to lose.
     
  24. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #24
    well, that's a cheery thought. how long until the NRA weighs in?
     
  25. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #25
    The technology is one thing. The materials, resources, and machining is another. I think it'll be a while before anything other than a state could realistically put it all together.
     

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