Secret Prisons

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Sayhey, Nov 2, 2005.

  1. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #1
    It just keeps getting worse and worse folks. Now we are using the prisons of the former gulag system we once castigated. Not only are we using the prisons but we are not telling Congress about them. OK, I'm with Green Day, wake me up when September ends. I could not make this stuff up for trashy fiction and be believed.
    Washington Post
     
  2. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #2
    Why am I not surprised...

    Bush: The president who dragged America's honor through the mud.
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #3
    Oops... duplicate post. Oh well, might as well use it for something!

    Weren't the Bushies all up in arms not that long ago because they were mentioned in the same sentence as 'gulags'?

    Now we know why that stung so much, hitting so close to home as it did...
     
  4. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #4
    Is this the U.S.A or have we turned into Nazi's? Our own Govt has decided to ignore a little thing like the Constitution and Bill of rights. These people are being held with no trials nothing. This is Scary stuff when you have a Govt going around doing anything it wants and not answering to no one. All this secret stuff can only lead to abuse of power and it has. All they have to do is throw a label on someone like....insurgent or enemy combatant and presto no human rights at all? We are becoming what our forfathers fought against. Another poor example the U.S. is setting under George & the Deferral Gang. You know all those draft dodgers like Cheney, Rove, Libby.............and yes George. Its a sad time to be an American when we have such piss poor sorry butt lack of leadership. Hypocrites.
     
  5. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #5
    i love how blunt you are dhm!

    sayhey- next time try not to get a source that's such a liberal commie rag. :rolleyes: ;)
     
  6. hcuar macrumors 65816

    hcuar

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    #6
    Umm... hello? These prisons are holding non US citizens. The consitution and bill of rights protects the rights of American Citizens, not foreign nationals. Our forefathers gave no protective status to such an individual. Only international organizations and treaties have defined such requirements. Being a soverign nation does not require the adherance to such policies.
     
  7. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #7
    not true

    when our country signs a treaty, it essentially becomes a part of our constitution, from what i understand. i assume this is the case for most treaties at least. the geneva conventions being one of them, i'm sure.

    i will check with someone though for clarification
     
  8. hcuar macrumors 65816

    hcuar

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    #8

    Yeah... you might want to check on that. That's incorrect. It has NOTHING to do with our constitution. It's a treaty. We've broken, renegociated, and followed many treaties and agreements throughout history.

    I'm not sure how old you are, so you may not have hadgovernment in high school yet. The only way to change the constitution is an amendment. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_amendment for general information. Here's a page for info specifically for the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Constitution At the bottom of the page are links about amendments.

    We have NO requirement to follow a treaty. If another nation doesn't like our breaking of the treaty, they may declare war, embargo, whatever. However, no nation most likley will due to finacial or military response. AKA the bigger and wealthier you are, the more you can bend the rules. It's not necessarily nice, but it's true.
     
  9. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #9
    Better take a better look at our Constitution, its still holds our govt to standards Bush and the Deferral gang have ignored, sidestepped etc. So because the deferral gang grab someone and give them a label that means they can be thrown in Jail with no trial ever? held for a lifetime?? We are better then this. What are we fighting for if Freedom, Liberty & Justice only applies to those you choose? Look close at the First phrase in the Constitution and tell me where justice is in throwing people into secret jails with no trials, secluded, no lawyers, for the rest of their lives even though they have yet been proven guilty?
     
  10. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #10
    A ratified treaty carries the same legal weight as federal law. Not sure how old you are, so you may not have had government in college yet.
     
  11. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #11
    the act of signing it is an indication that we'll follow it. just because it's not been formally amended into the constitution doesn't make it any less illegal. i shall note the constitution specifies no speed limits, but breaking them is still illegal.

    i'd say that, usually, when the US breaks a treaty, the leadership has changed.
     
  12. Sayhey thread starter macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #12
    Please read the Constitution before posting on what it says.

    US House of Representatives - US Constitution emphasis added

    The US has negotiated many treaties, including the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. We are bound to follow such treaties as the "supreme Law of the Land." The argument that we have broken treaties in the past does nothing to relieve us of our obligations to follow the law, whether that comes from the text of our own Constitution or through negotiated and ratified treaties.

    The real question is not your misunderstanding of the importance of treaty obligations, but rather how you cannot be outraged by the lengths this administration has gone to set up a system for detainees that is outside the law and outside any oversight. Is that what our government should stand for?
     
  13. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #13
    secret prisons, kidnapping citizens of other countries, torture ... in other countries there are 6 days of nightly riots because of two teenagers who get killed by electric shocks hiding from the police in a transformator building :rolleyes:
    i'm sure those CRS gendarmes might do wonders if sent to the white house ;)
     
  14. hcuar macrumors 65816

    hcuar

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    #14
    Again incorrect... See: http://www.uhuh.com/control/contrump.htm for a description of what the paragraph entails.

    I'm not outraged. I'm rather happy that my safety is being protected by my government. As long as the US follows our constitution, I'm fine with that. If you think that covert intellegence is possible while being prim and proper, you're mistaken.

    As to breaking the speed limit not being in the constitution... Please! See the section on how state and local governments may make their own laws which do not violate the federal constitution.
     
  15. hcuar macrumors 65816

    hcuar

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    #15
    Yes... it's allowed if the subject isn't a US citizen.
     
  16. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #16
    I'll repeat for emphasis: While a signed, ratified treaty does not act as an amendment, it carries the same weight as a federal law. Therefore, violation of the Geneva Conventions is equivalent to breaking federal law.
     
  17. hcuar macrumors 65816

    hcuar

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    #17
    My point is that it doesn't act as an amendment. So in order to serve the consitution, a treaty may be violated due to the constitution trumping a treaty. In addition, a treaty may be revoked or repealed.

    I believe the spirit of the above mention paragraph by another poster was to ensure that state or local governments didn't pass laws which violate a treaty established by the federal government. The federal government may violate the treaty (with or without notification).

    In the case of the geneva convention treaty, it wasn't violated based the classification given to the "insurgents". Hairsplitting yes... but legal.
     
  18. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #18
    wow. thanks for the insults.

    i will refrain from the multitude coming to mind.

    from an email of someone i know, who just happens to know her stuff and by the way, works for the state dept. ie, the people who ultimately have to know. thanks for the gov't lesson though.

    amen
     
  19. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #19
    So when Clinton split legal hairs about what sex was you were totally in agreement with his technical assertion that he didn't lie?
     
  20. Sayhey thread starter macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #20

    If you post here long enough you will find that linking to right-wing wingnut's websites as references to try an uphold a weak argument does not impress anyone.

    The point here isn't whether the US can enter into a treaty obligation that conflicts with the Constitution. There is no conflict between the obligations of the US under treaty obligations concerning the treatment of prisoners or detainees during time of war and the US Constitution. Far from it. Our Constitution anticipates such obligations and places them on equal footing as federal law. That is the meaning of the Article VI clause 2. If you want a basic understanding of this I recommend the US Senate's web site and the Senate's Foreign Relations Committee's study on the question.
    What you are in effect saying is that you don't have to follow any federal laws [read as treaties] that you think don't agree with your flawed understanding of the Constitution. Never mind that this enables torture, "extraordinary rendition," unlimited detention, or any other horrific practice condemned throughout most of the rest of the world - and up to the advent of this administration in this country as well.
     
  21. srobert macrumors 68020

    srobert

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    #21
    Scary neighbor… :(
     
  22. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #22
    i guess we all know how much problems the US still have with other countries laws or international treaties.. like flying over neutral countries with armed stealth bombers to save fuel (500 million $ stealth bombers getting intercepted + photographed by Saab Drakens from 1960: priceless)

    or like it happened to a friend living in vienna near the US embassy where during a terror warning US marines simply locked the street completly and woudn't let him into his flat ... not once but twice
     
  23. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #23
    Well, it's good to know that it's not illegal. I guess that makes it ok then. The only thing that surprises me is where you found this article. It's sad that I've become so used to things like this that I pretty much figured this was common knowledge. The worst part, is that this doesn't make us any safer. Quite the opposite really. Not only do we not always get what we want out of them information wise (if we even have the right people), others see us as no better (or worse) and Al Qaida gains a few new members as we loose a few more allies. And here I thought we were supposed to be the good guys. :(

    Remember this when the government wants to intrude on your life for the sake of "security". Ben Franklin, Martin Niemoller, Tom Jefferson, and others.
     
  24. tristan macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    Geneva convention does *not* apply. It only applies to enemy soldiers in uniform on the battlefield. Al queda, insurgents, etc are considered outside the rules of warfare and undeserving of the privileges afforded to legitimate prisoners of war. This is because they hide among civilians. It's why spies and saboteurs in WWII were shot rather than getting trials.

    There is also the legitimate argument that the Geneva convention applies only to signatories. if Al Queda didn't sign the agreement, they don't get its protection, and we shouldn't expect it from them. #2 argument against Geneva.

    I have no problem with the US using tough tactics against enemy soldiers and terrorists - assuming that they're really terrorists and not some civilians that got rounded up by "mistake".

    FYI Where the Geneva convention does apply is to civilian populations of occupied territories - i.e. Iraq. Up until the handover, you could make an argument that the US breached the Geneva convention by not taking better care of the Iraqi civilians (i.e. healthcare, hospital facilities, etc). But it's not like the insurgents made it easy for us.
     
  25. Stella macrumors 604

    Stella

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    #25
    Then don't whine and complain when foreign countries beat up POW american soliders...

    .. if your country can't treat other nationalities well, why should others.
     

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