Semantics suck, let's settle this.

Discussion in 'Community' started by mischief, Apr 7, 2003.

  1. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #1
    Good vs. Evil

    Choice vs. Dictation

    Freedom vs. Compliance

    Rights vs. Priviledges


    At what point do we draw the line beween these things?

    At what point does any Government or agency rightfully have juristiction in fixing policy on ANY of it?

    What possible justification is there to ever dictate and punnish actions purely on narrow moralistic mores?

    At what point do we separate the teachings of Religion from the support frameworks of Law?

    Is Law supposed to be a deterrant, a way to "fix" problems in society or a code of conduct with attatched penalization? ( 3 choices here)

    Is the function of government to prevent the citizenry from making moral mistakes by removing the option of making those mistakes "legally" or is it the function of government to protect the populus only from defineable and practical dangers?

    Is not the central theme in life to learn these distinctions through personal experience?

    Is not the concept of Rote learning the LEAST effective means of conveying understanding?
     
  2. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

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    #2
    less government is better...

    I hate how the democrats seem to all be for more government control of the citizens. The government should NOT get into our personal lives in any way.

    Also, unless you are committing an act that harms someone else, who gives a bloody fork?? Along those lines, murder would be illegal as well as theft and other acts that harm others.

    I'm also all for capital punishment for convicted murderers.

    [I can hear the liberals grinding their teeth even now... heh]
     
  3. Nipsy macrumors 65816

    Nipsy

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    #3
    Do you mean you don't like the software company Symantec, or were you talking about 'semantics'. When starting a thread about detail and nuance of usage, you really oughta spell the word correctly.

    Sorry, but when you leave yourself open like that, I gotta have a go.
     
  4. mischief thread starter macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #4
    Re: less government is better...

    But that's the question isn't it? Is the conviction the key or is the recoverability of the felon's mind?

    If the existing system is considered the appropriate one it would seem that for convicted murderers the case is one of punnishment reguardless of mental status. It becomes a simple matter of Roman style punnishment with no reguard for compassion at all.
     
  5. mischief thread starter macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #5
    That's what I get for posting while selling software.:p
     
  6. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

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    #6
    Re: Re: less government is better...

    Murder should be punished by capital punishment. There are different classifications of murder as well... those that kill in self defense do not fall into the same category as someone that actively sought to kill someone. Killing someone while under the influence should be murder just the same as if someone was sober. People need to have better control over their own actions, and be willing to accept the consequences for their actions.

    As for recovery of a felon's mind... Medical students could use it for research for all I care.

    An eye for an eye, in some cases, would be a better deterrent for criminal acts then the current system. You rape someone, you get raped in turn. You kill someone, you get killed. Oh, and abortion is NOT murder, no matter what the "right to life" yahoo's say. I can think of several instances where abortion is not only justifiable, but necessary. Also, unless you are the woman that is pregnant, you have NO right to tell her that she cannot abort. Ultimately, it's her decision and she will have to live with it.
     
  7. strider42 macrumors 65816

    strider42

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    #7
    Re: less government is better...

    Funny, seems to me its the republican politicians who want to allow the FBI and CIA to seruptitiously monitor everything we do. The mainstream liberal politicians do have a tendency to try an legislate things that don't need to be legislated, but its got little to do with being liberal.
     
  8. RandomDeadHead macrumors 6502

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    #8
    Prayer in school is in DIRECT violation of separation between church and state. The bible is nothing but a book of laws, where the consequences are eternal damnation. So the teachings of Religion AND the frameworks of Law where disigned and crafted by men from the the ground up to scare you into submission.
    If king James can write his own version of the bible why cant George Bush? Or how about the President Clinton version of the bible?

    Sorry if I am babbling like an idoit, its just that, When I was growing up my family and I were devout christians(church every sunday, prayer before supper and bed) So of course when I went off to college it was at a christian one. My first day I was excited about getting to learn all about my religion in an academic setting. One year later I despised christianity. All of my questions while there were answered with the following phrase: Its just gods will.

    Dont get me wrong, I do beieve in A god, just not one that demands that we go to church every week and patronize him by singing his praise. Think about it, God obviously knows that he is wise and all powerfull, so why do we have to go to a church to tell him that he is. And I HAVE read the bible several times so dont flame me for not knowing what I am talking about. ( If you havent read the bible I suggest that you do, it is an EXCELENT work of fiction, writen just like so many of our laws, cryptic and open ended, so that it is easy to find loop holes and can be misenturprated to fill any need.

    My favorate scripture:
    My second favorate:

    And to all you holy rollers who I am shure will flame the hell out me:
     
  9. GeeYouEye macrumors 68000

    GeeYouEye

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    #9
    Re: Re: less government is better...

    Hardly exclusive to Republicans. The author of the USA-PATRIOT Act (and its strongest advocate) was Bill Graham, D - FL.

    As for the answer to the original question, it can be summed up in two rules: .... which I will post when I have more time.
     
  10. strider42 macrumors 65816

    strider42

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    #10
    Re: Re: Re: less government is better...

    You're quite right of course. I was trying to make a point, rather than try to portray such practises as the exclusive realm of republicans. But it has always bothered me when some (and certainly not all) republicans shout and yell about democrats trying to legislate their lives when some of the biggest instances of stripping away our rights has come from republican leadership. Lets share the blame equally. I vote with the democrats because they more closely align themselves with the kinds of social ideals I think are important, not because I think the party line is flawless. PLenty of instances where democrats try to do stupid things and plenty of times republicans do equally stupid things that take away from our rights and freedoms because of knee jerk responses or politics.
     
  11. hvfsl macrumors 68000

    hvfsl

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    #11
    Well I think the US has too many freedoms they can do without anyway, what is it with guns? There are more guns per person in the US than Iraq, especially in LA.

    You cant have a totaly free society, it is this kind of thing that has helped M$'s dominance. But you can't have a society like China ether. I think something like Germany or Finland is probably the best. We need restricts to keep the order, but these restrictions must not be too harsh.
     
  12. mischief thread starter macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #12
    This is not a debate of which party is wrong.

    Nor is it a debate about particular politician's views.

    This is a debate about the philosophy of Morality and Ethics as they are applied to Law.

    If the debate can be kept to the subjects stated all will go smoother and we won't have anyone hiding behind group dynamics.
     
  13. hvfsl macrumors 68000

    hvfsl

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    #13
    No its not, I wish people would really not put assumptions here, the bible is a book about Gods interaction with Earth and the human race. That is the main theme, it only mentions a few times about people going to hell.

    Although I do agree religon should be separated from state (it says it in the bible), but the church is one of the only places people are taught about ethics, so if religon goes from school, what will replace it?
     
  14. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

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    #14
    The bible is the longest piece of fiction still in print.
     
  15. NavyIntel007 macrumors 65816

    NavyIntel007

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    #15
    I seriously doubt it's fiction. For one, events that have gone on in the Bible have been proven as real events. And I really doubt that at least half of the world believes in the bible in some form or another (i.e. the Koran, Torah, and Bible).
     
  16. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #16
    So then stories centered around historical events are real, too?

    Wow! Casablanca actually happened like that! ;)
     
  17. mischief thread starter macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #17
    The Bible is only about how the God of Abraham spoke to the Aramaic people followed by a concoction of collected writings assembled and edited by politically ambitious Italians 300 years after the death of Yeshua (Jesus). God has spoken to many other cultures before and since.

    Relative to this discussion, however all of this is irrelevant.

    Ethics can be taught through the Platonic Virtues and subsequent Philosophic writings. If Students want to study religions as Cultural studies they can do that LATER, like say in HS as elective courses.

    If the parents can't teach their kids ethics then there are other problems that no school prayer session can solve. Religious study in public schools is unconstitutional by definition if it's part of the curriculum or led by staff.
     
  18. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #18
    the bible is not a work of fiction, even if you don't believe the spiritual side of it. it's highly historically supported.

    why you people let this devolve into a discussion of the bible's validity, though, i don't know.

    mischief, i think you should stop with your "ethics" being better than "morals" trip. there is no science of morals per se that is somehow superior to religion. you can sit there and try to analyze right and wrong from your own "tabula rasa" native reason and draw your own conclusions, but in your mind, how does that make your, or "science's" conclusions about morals superior to the morals of someone who derived his morals from religion? to say that religious people are less analytical about it is an argument from ignorance. you don't have the knowledge to say that.
     
  19. G4scott macrumors 68020

    G4scott

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    #19
    Re: Re: less government is better...

    If we just put everybody who commits murder into fuzzy rooms for the rest of thier lives, or parts of their lives, we would have a much higher murder rate. Heck, convicted felons get cable TV, a comfy bed, workout facilities, and three meals a day, and they don't have to lift a finger to get any of it.

    With capital punishment, we show murders that we will not tolerate it at all. You set the example. Commit the crime, pay the price. If the price is your life, I'm sure a lot less people would consider murdering others.

    I also think we need to change our prison system, so that every prision, state, federal, county, or whatever, has small brick cells, a thin mattress on a wodden bed, no TV, no workout room, and just enough food to get by. Prisoners should have to work all day, paying for their stay in prison, that way us taxpayers don't have to take care of it. A prison in Arizona took care of the costs by making their prision a tent city surrounded by barbed wire, giving the prisoners pink clothes, and making them work all day long. It worked. The prisoners paid their price, and the taxpayers didn't pay as much for the prison.

    These are just my opinions on this topic...
     
  20. mischief thread starter macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #20
    If parents want their kids morally educated through religion that's THEIR responsibility. If you want Morals or Ethics taught in public schoos it falls back to Platonic philosophy.

    I have no opinion at all about which is superior nor have I posted any such statement on this thread. Putting words in my mouth will just get you seriously verbally whipped.

    Don't assume I have no Faith simply because I haven't told you what format that belief takes. That's incredibly arrogant and insulting.


    Let's get away from the Bible shall we? I established this thread to determine by debate what role Law should take in determining the behaviour of the populus. Whose writings you use to relate to the big G are irrelevant to this discusion IF you follow any.
     
  21. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #21
    i didn't tell you you had no faith; now it's you putting words into my mouth.

    let's stop that. i'm sorry for accusing you of thinking platonic morals superior to religious morals; from the tone i inferred from some of your posts, it sounded like it, but perhaps i was wrong. my issue is that, in the abortion thread, for instance, we can say that murder is wrong, and can be accused (if indirectly) by you of bringing religion into it. as you point out, it just happens that murder and theft are "proscribed" by both religious moralism and platonic moralism.

    yes, let's leave the bible out of the discussion of government laws, shall we?
     
  22. mischief thread starter macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #22
    Re: Re: Re: less government is better...

    http://www.endcapitalpunishment.com/stats/

    http://salt.claretianpubs.org/stats/capitalpun/capitalp.html

    If the DP is such a deterrant.... why are there more executions than ever before? Wouldn't you think that if it were a deterrant there'd be effectively NO Capital Crimes after eighty some odd years of executions?

    The point I was making is that it makes more sense to psychologically screen Capital offenders into 2 categories: Sociopath and redeemable. Then you Humainly Euthanize the Sociopaths. No more of this public execution bull****.
     
  23. mischief thread starter macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #23
    Touche.

    Fine. Now can we get down to what your views are in respect to where you draw the line across which the Government should never tread?;)
     
  24. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #24
    Re: Re: Re: Re: less government is better...

    now let's argue the DP!
    there are more factors to committing a crime than just whether or not there is a death penalty. other factors, such as TV violence, affect the decision to take a life.

    it was my understanding that capital punishment these days was by and large filmed (sometimes) euthanasia. it's not like they flay them alive, or even hang them enymore. as for the electric chair, sure. that's pretty brutal. but to take their life via euthanasia is also capital punishment.
     
  25. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #25
    I'll be mostly libertarian. i despise the idea of allowing the government to monitor me without reasonable suspicion, terrorists or no. but actions taken in public or that effect others should be fair game.
     

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