Sepereate vs. Equal (Gay Marriage)

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Chip NoVaMac, Jun 26, 2004.

  1. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #1
    Here is the link:

    http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/st...LS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20040625/1427287451.htm

    Key points:

    Just one more indication that laws that allow for special privileges for "married" men and women needs to end, or all the special rights and privileges allowed by law be extended between two consenting adults.

    I think that we have moved past the days of only land owners being able to vote, as long as they are male. To move past the days that interracial marriage was considered to be s a sin against man and God.

    We need to decide if marriage is a religious or a government institution. In either case then the government has not right to allow discrimination based on religious principles.
     
  2. iGav macrumors G3

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    #2
    I still don't understand people wanting to discriminate and deprive others of happiness and equality. I really don't.

    Oh well.... one day I'm sure certain groups of people will see sense... :eek: :rolleyes:
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #3
    it's fear
     
  4. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #4
    But fear of what?

    Marriage is both a religious and a state institution. You can get married at a church, but without a certificate, you're not married under state law. Churches and pastors are allowed to pick and choose who they marry. The state, however, deals with the legalities of marriage, not the morals. The state is not allowed to discriminate. And separate but equal is inherently unequal according to the supreme court.
     
  5. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #5
    fear of change and fear of the unknown motivate a lot of our personal decisions. i think those apply in this case.

    also, there is a lot of self-imposed sexual repression in the US society. some of the most homophobic people i know are the ones who i most think are actually gay, though they'd never admit it, even to themselves. i reckon at least a few of the club people denying admittance are scared what would happen to themselves, should they actually become friends with a gay person.
     
  6. iGav macrumors G3

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    #6
    yep... :(

    hypocrisy, greed, hatred could probably be added to that aswell... :rolleyes:
     
  7. Chip NoVaMac thread starter macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #7
    And I think this is what scares the conservatives (of both parties). that is why the election of 2004 is so important to both sides. The SCOTUS will probably see new members from 2004 through 2008. Liberals are afraid of ultra-conservatives, and the Republicans are afraid of ultra-liberals (though maybe not as liberal as they think).

    The other fear is that people like my partner and I will recruit "members" into being "Gay". Just when He and i were so close to getting that toaster oven. :rolleyes:

    They fear that we will recruit and molest the youth. Never mind that when I worked with the youth (before I openly admitted that I was Gay), that I was more fearful of the youth. False accusations of sexual misconduct are hard to defend against when it involves children.

    Some have fears that other "deviant" sexual behavior and "marriages" will result. Multiple partners, marriages between man and beast, and the such. I will admit that the concept of multiple partners may be an off shoot of this. Some religions allow for multiple wives, but is outlawed here in the US.

    I think that the unspoken fear among the hardcore conservative is a decline in the "white" or even "black" population. For some would say that we are becoming a non-secular country when it comes from the generations that have been here awhile. It is the newer immigrant groups that have held on to their religious beliefs far more. Sorry if this concept upsets some. But I do remember seeing a study that showed immigrant groups gaining in "population" of the more recognized churches.

    That being said my partner (or lover as some would say) have been together for 12 years this coming Xmas. Longer than some straight friends that have had two or three marriages each. Our sexuality comes up in conversation only when some of friends wonder "what do we d?", who is the man and who is the woman. :D Oh, how stereotypes live on so strongly. We've have gone through our rough patches. But like many other couples we have worked past those.

    Keep in mind that during those twelve years we did not have a certificate to bind us legally together. We could have parted ways, and no one would have known better. Just another statistic in the conservative coffin that Gay's can not have a committed relationship.

    Twice in the past two years we have had "life changing" events (both job loses), that would have allowed one or the other to go on the others health insurance if we were a "married" couple. And now it appears that the legal fees we started to pay a few months ago to protect the "joint property" may be for nothing because of a new Commonwealth of Virginia law.

    Sorry for the long ramble, but some have not seen the other side of the coin. As always i welcome hearing rational, alternative views. For my example of "multiple partners" came from a rational discussion of the Gay marriage issue.
     
  8. Chip NoVaMac thread starter macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #8
    To be honest it is sometimes easier to try and "blend in" than to strike out for what is right. Even if it does not mean coming out. I like some Gays played the "Monday morning pronoun game". Joe becomes Joanne. he becomes she. We have female friends that we can go to company functions with, only to save our jobs.

    Much like if one were to live where the "black and white" issue were still an issue. It is far easier to laugh at racial jokes, or make them yourself; than to strike out against such bigotry. Keep in mind there are many a small town out there, that not everyone lives in a urban center.
     
  9. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #9
    Chip, w/ reference to your comments about working with Children...I read this article in the local weekly here in Portland (by a gay columnist), which talks in part about the newest David Sedaris book (I find he is a great writer BTW)...the subject being broached (in the article and by Sedaris), is the uncomfortableness many gay men feel aroung children, just because they are Gay...as if others will see him as trying to recruit a kid, or all kids for that matter. This is a struggle over the guilt of being gay...

    As Sedaris writes " I am a person who feels guilty for crimes I have not committed - or not commited in years." This shared guilt, is not seen as guilt over sexuality, but a shared guilt forced upon those who are gay, by the culture they grew up in - a culture that still says that there is something wrong about being gay...or at least being old and gay. And so subsequently children are not supposed to be safe around gay men, even in some of their own heads...

    I found it to be an interesting article, and an unfortunate one...I guess I had no real point, other than to share...other than this generalized culture of guilt and fear (on both sides), obscures the simple truth that we are all more alike than different...
     
  10. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #10

    Wow! Thanks for sharing so much personal info. I have to say: Wow. I've lived in Virginia for a few months and my parents are from there and I can't imagine being gay there. It is hard enough not being conservative!
     
  11. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #11

    As a teacher, I've noticed most men, even straight men, feel uncomfortable around little kids. Partially because they are so tactile and want to constantly touch you (the teacher). When I interview part of my response to why I want to be a teacher is because I love children. Can you imagine if a guy said that?? :eek:
     
  12. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    May 9, 2004
    #12
    Ask Michael Jackson.
    Is he a pervert or is he a child in a mans body who is too trapped in his child like emotions to stay away from kids considering the bad publicity he's received lately?
     
  13. Duff-Man macrumors 68030

    Duff-Man

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    #13
    Duff-Man says...not just fear, but out-dated religious beliefs too. People get so firm in their interpretations of centuries old writings that they become extremely intolerant of anything that challenges those writings/beliefs. We got over "the world is flat" - why can't people get over those literal interpretations of books written hundreds of ages ago...oh yeah!
     
  14. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #14
    indeed. though i see that as fear of change and fear of being wrong about something so fundamental (pun intended? hmmmm...) about their lives.
     
  15. blue&whiteman macrumors 65816

    blue&whiteman

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    #15
    it scares me that a person so conformed is in a position to shape young minds.
     
  16. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #16
    well, I don't have the appropriate context, I guess...you are entitled to your opinion

    *edit* other than Sayhey...
     
  17. Chip NoVaMac thread starter macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #17
    Well, it is not a picnic from a rights perspective. And before some jump on the "rights issue", I am not talking of special rights. This is a conservative smokescreen to scare those that might feel that Gays should have equal protection under current laws.

    Another "fun fact" about how Republicans (you know, the ones that want less government involvement) in Virginia. It is against the state law for a private employer to provide employment benefits to domestic partners or unmarried partners. Even if the employer wanted to.

    Some may wonder why Gays in the metro Dc area would want to live in Virginia, verses Maryland and DC that is much more gay friendly. In our house it the same reason that anyone chooses a place to live. Jobs and quality of life.

    For my partner and I, our lives do not revolve around being Gay. We work. We play at the Dog Park with our Chewey. We enjoy going for hikes in the parks. We enjoy a low crime rate because of the excellent police force. We are involved with community issues. We enjoy the good schools, though we have no children. Because good schools lead to good community, and better housing values. But more importantly we don't desire to be defined by being Gay. We are a long term couple that has the same hopes and dreams as our neighbors.
     
  18. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #18
    ON another forum I post on we had to educate them by asking them what special rights exactly "you" were seeking. Of course they couldn't come up with any :rolleyes: That is when you can tell "they" are quoting ;)

    THe same goes for abortion. Less gov't control is less gov't control. Unless of course they want the gov't to have control. It is a hypocrisy of the Right.

    I lived in Grand Rapids, MI for about 2 years (high school). Oye. Of course as a high school student I was a reflection of my parents ~ but growing out of it. It was not a good place to be asking the kinds of questions I was asking!

    I look forward to when even "outsiders" will see it that way. I'm sure you've heard all about the evil gay lifestyle ;) I think the average "gay is bad" person is quite surprised to hear that gay people tend to want the same things as straight people. Go figure!
     
  19. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #19
    You miss the point entirely. Most of the folks here, including myself, disagreed with Neserk around her position on drugs. We can argue over where the line should be on numerous issues concerning personal freedoms and government interventions, but none of that has remotely gone into the realm of advocating Fascism.

    A little history is in order. When we talk of fascism it is a term that has grown to encompass not only the political movement of Benito Mussolini, but also the Nazis, the Phalange in Spain, the Arrow Cross in Hungary, the Iron Guard in Rumania, etc. These are people with politics that wish to use the power of the state to crush opposition. These are forces who have and will in the future (if we let them) kill and torture any who oppose them. Comparisons of people we disagree with (Neserk included) who in no way fit these type of political beliefs or advocate these methods only discredits those who throw the term around. Argue your point without such overreaching and you will get much more support.

    If you want to look at American fascism, unfortunately, there are many examples that can be pointed out. The American Nazis, skinheads, KKK, are the obvious examples. I would point to the bombings of the Federal building in Oklahoma City and many abortion clinics as examples of real fascist movements. If you want to learn more about these dangerous groups and how to fight them, I recommend the work of two very important watchdog organizations, the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, both which do wonderful work.

    edit: I see Doc Q is editing the posts here. So this may not make a lot of sense to a new reader of the thread.
     
  20. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #20
    offtopic:
    i have no problem with agreeing with one person on one issue and disgree with the same person the next thread on another issue.. it's part of discussion...

    ontopic:
    besides that i still have to shudder when i see 2 boys/girls kissing each other in a club etc. i'm in full support for gay marriage etc. (with the only thing where i am full of doubts is child adoption... but i think i have my doubts because i have no childrens ;) )
     
  21. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
     

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