solar thoughts

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by stubeeef, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    Aug 10, 2004
    #1
    I frequent Christianforums.com. Big surprise I know. Anyway there is a guy there doing some theories about the sun, his site , And it once again got me thinking about some things I had picked up at different sites and educational tv shows.

    I came across a paragraph that says a lot to me, and all those looking at mechenisms that cause global warming. It came from here .

    I believe this activity combined with the earths weaking magnetic field (due to pole shifting-a very slow process that we are theorized to be in the middle of) are to account for much of our global temp rise. (mongo? what ya think? I can take it-I aint no scientist!)

    other data included in the attachment.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #2
    Lots of data and I wanted to include this for your digestion as well as my own.
     
  3. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #3
    I found the 2003, Shaviv and Veizer model very interesting. On long terms, millions of years, variations caused by the cosmos have a huge effect! Muy interesante, NO?
     
  4. MongoTheGeek macrumors 68040

    MongoTheGeek

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    Its not so much where you are as when you are.
    #4
    Wow...

    Um lets see...

    I have no doubt that cosmic rays do have some effect on global temperature. Not much I would think.

    As for the magnetic activity/temperature/weakening magnetic field...

    The Earths magnetic field has been known to flip periodically as the suns does (the earth every 28 thousand years, the sun every 11) I would be surprised if something other than the sun drives the Earths magnetic reversals. It is probably some function of the harmonics (music of the spheres :) ) causing the difference.

    Sunspots effect the earth in at least 2 different opposing ways. 1) They are cold areas which emit less light. 2) They are tied to CME's (Coronal Mass Ejections) where huge amounts of superheated plasma gets shot into space and some of it lands on earth. More than would be expected because the earth's magnetic field acts like a vacuum.

    I've been noodling with a theory about the suns magnetic field setting up idle currents in the the outer core but never got around to doing the math on it. It could very well be that we get almost as much energy indirectly as we do directly.

    The green house gases theory of climate change has bothered me as thumbing its nose at entropy and the black body radiation. While yes the planet will hold heat better at night it will absorb less during the day. The only real way it makes a difference is if the effects of core cooling are non negligible.
     
  5. anubis macrumors 6502a

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    #5
    Global warming could be caused by some strange, far-off tale of sunspots and magnetic fields. OR it could be the billions of tons of carbon dioxide we pump into the air each year, among billions of tons of other gases/waste.

    I mean, whichever.


    (You can tell me leprechauns crawling out of my ass are the cause of global warming, but that still doesn't change the fact that industry produces about 150 BILLION TONS of carbon dioxide each year, which happens to be about 100 TIMES (not percent. TIMES.) the amount of carbon dioxide that is produced by natural sources, such as volcanoes. Maybe if there was less coveting of thy neighbors goods, there'd be a lot less industry and a lot less pollution. But don't argue about religion with me. I'm an athiest.)
     
  6. MongoTheGeek macrumors 68040

    MongoTheGeek

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    #6
    Yes, but if you put a scarf on a snowman does it melt any faster?
     
  7. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    VA
    #7
    Its fine to look at the paleoclimate and say that things in the past have happened before that we're seeing now, but as stated above, humans have done things that have never been seen on earth in terms of rapid change. The only things that would be close are asteroid impact and volcanic eruptions - and these work a little faster than what humans have been doing.

    I think of it more as the straw and camel - if humans weren't around right now, maybe the Earth would be warming, but probably not at such a rapid
    rate.

    D
     
  8. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #8
    While there is a CO2 effect, there is by far a 2X-6X more effect from solar and cosmic radiation. Lets face it when the sun is out it is warmer with in hours, than on a cloudy day.

    This from the first post is wild. Try and grasp this....
    You can see in the attachment in post two, that many of the theorized solar cylcles are matching their sine waves, and all happening over just a few decades. Some of these cycles are very long, hundreds of years.
     
  9. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #9
    i think it was never was questioned that the sun has periodical ups and downs (for example 2000 years ago it was much warmer thus hannibal was able to cross the alps with elephants easier... 800 years ago it was easily a few degrees colder and the apls were nearly uncrossable in winter

    actually there is a pretty good observed perodical upd and down in sun spots i think it's 11 years from climax to climax at the moment it's on the way down again afaik

    the question is: do we need to accelerate it even more ? as said before in another thread: the ax planck institute i ngermany made together with US and other international universities and tried out multiple dozens of theoretical models and tried out if it can fit on the data fro mthe 19th century to now
    and the final result was something along 30-40 % (don't remember) influence from the humans ... a lot resulted in increased vulcano activity

    in my book 40% (even 10%) is still a lot ;)
     
  10. jayscheuerle macrumors 68020

    jayscheuerle

    #10
    Depends on its color. ;)
     
  11. anubis macrumors 6502a

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    #11

    Damn straight. My point exactly.
     
  12. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    Aug 10, 2004
    #12
    WTF. at least put a sarcastic face on it, and who prey tell was arguing religion with you? Man that is a big chip up there. And who says that pollution is ok, read my past posts, ALL talk about its evils. My car is a 1989 Honda CRX HF that gets 50mpg on the highway, how about yours?

    edit: atleast we agree here
    as per my reagan comment in my sig
     
  13. rainman::|:| macrumors 603

    rainman::|:|

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    #13
    If there is any visual radiation, no matter the color, then yes, it does.

    anubis, hear hear. i too sit watching people come up with far-out, theoretical things that MIGHT explain global warming, when they ignore the very BIG and obvious one in front of them... Just because it'd be inconvenient to fix. Hey, we'll accept any excuse for global warming (sunspots, 'earth cycles', Wicca), just so long as it has nothing to do with our lovely, lovely fossil fuels.
     
  14. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #14
    None of this is far out, we have traveled this road before, all my posts are pro alternative energy. In fact if anyone remembers here, my entire house except 4 lights are compact flourescent. I also give $4/mo to the NC green power initative.
    But the earth does go in cycles, to ignore it is very silly. As stated the sun is on a cycle not seen in 8000 yrs. To ignore that is very silly.
    Is it a single factor? Most likely not. Is CO2 buildup bad and contributing to Global Warming? Absolutely.
    To not want to learn more, or discuss the other mechanisms is strange to me. But lets dig in and do the "CO2 is the cause of everything bad" rant!
    I prefer to look at everything. In fact there was some posts I put up in the past about an X sierra club/green party tree guy, who now says that tree farms would be the worst thing to do, but can't get the science into the politics, seems some in those orgs just want to rage at the light. Sad.
    If we do the wrong things, in the name of good, it could cause an even worse disaster. We had better be damn careful about how we treat the symptoms, or we could ruin all.
     
  15. anubis macrumors 6502a

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    #15

    Don't get holier than thou with me.

    1. You were the one who mentioned you found it on a "Christian" web site.
    2. I personally tune my Saturn SL every month, I eek every last drop of gasoline out of it. I get exactly 48 miles per gallon on the highway, thank you very much.
    3. Regarding your post about how "green" your house is: I too have replaced all of my lights with the flourescents. I, however, also have spent a significant amount of time and money converting my entire house to solar power. I've purchased close to a thousand bare solar cells, soldered them together by hand, encased them in plexiglass, and built a grid tie-in from scratch (thanks to my power engineering courses). This array generates close to 1500 watts on a sunny day (320 days a year here) and is enough to supply about 80% of my house's energy needs. Purchasing pollution "credits" or giving to an energy fund, to me, simply means that you're too lazy to not pollute/consume energy yourself, so you're going to pay someone else to not pollute/use energy for you.

    To save on natural gas, I've also built my own solar powered water heater on my roof. I bought close to a thousand feet of hose, wrapped it in black electrical tape, and have it coiled on top of my roof encased in a large plexiglass box. The water from this system is then already pre-heated before it enters my gas water heater. (In New Mexico, if you've ever picked up a garden hose in the middle of the day, you know that the water that comes out is REALLY hot. SCALDING hot. I simply took this idea and ran with it.)

    All of this solar flare and magnetic field talk is all very interesting. But you can't just ignore the fact that the rate in the rise of global temperature just so happens to exactly match the rate in the rise of greenhouse gas emissions. I bet if you REALLY did research on who conducts these so-called studies, you would find that most of them are ultimately sponsored by Big Oil companies, among others. How CONVINENT for them to shift global warming blame from burning oil to solar flares.

    It's no different than these Cost of Ownership "studies" you see on the internet, that supposedly claim that Windows has a lower TCO than other opearting systems. Until you realize that every study ever conducted that finds Windows has a lower TCO was sponsored by Microsoft!

    Even if studies conducted by the government find that CO2 isn't responsible for global warming, it would be extremely naive to not believe that Big Oil spends BILLIONS on lobbying efforts, bribery, etc. I don't think it would be too hard nor too far fetched to believe that Big Oil lobbies (and when you think about it, what is lobbying exactly? It's wining and dining politicians with "soft money" so that, in this case, they launch "studies" through the department of energy, or whereever, that just so happen to find CO2 is not the cause of global warming after all!
     
  16. anubis macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    One more thing. Even if this study does have merit, and solar flares really are contributing to global warming, what exactly do you propose we do about it? I don't think science has advanced far enough that we can alter the sun's radiation characteristics.

    But CO2 emissions, which you admit are a big cause of global warming, we CAN do something about.
     
  17. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #17
    Have you ever been to Christian Forums.com before? Heck it is full of Atheists, Diests, Muslims, Jews, and every other sect and religion in the world. Don't judge a book by its cover.

    I applaud your use of alternate energy sources, and if I lived in a state that had as many solar days as NM, I would in a heart beat.

    I am not going to tit for tat who is greener. I will say that it is ignorant to not look into all the mechanics. I am not a scientist and can not validate of dispute many of the claims made by these or other organizations. But if you want to dispute NASA I understand. But do you claim bias when they are done by greenpeace, or the like?

    Fact is CO2 is bad in large quantities, burning the amazon is bad in its present form (ya there is a correlation). Pollution of all types is not a good thing and should be mitigated. There should be more tax incentives to take your home green (last conference I was at, the south east energy expo there was some great tech like vacumn tube solar water heater arrays).
    But lets face facts, the earth has warmed and cooled many times in the millions of years before we got here (or thousands if you are a young earth taughter). The rate of warming seems unprecedented, kinda like most solar effect in 8000 years, and I am sure that CO2 is at min partially responsible, but think it is probably in co-hoots with other mechanisms as well.

    Again ChristianForums actually covers every single religion and subject imaginable, together with MR, I am more than overwhelmed. If you enjoy telling christians that you hate their religion it is the place for you. You can also tell the wiccans, jews, muslims, taoist, deists, agnostics, witches, pagans, and so on.......
     
  18. jsw Moderator emeritus

    jsw

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    Andover, MA
    #18
    In a few days, this will be a moot point.

    PowerBook G5's will be announced, and Hell will freeze over.

    ;)
     
  19. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #19
  20. stubeeef thread starter macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #20
    Have you ever calculated the CO2 emissions related to this website? Or the manufacture of PB's? Holy crap-ola, heck I put enough hot air out there to warm iceland!

    And they are going to announce opteron powerbooks anyway, get your coat!
     

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