Somebody tell me why

Discussion in 'Games' started by Dane D., Jan 3, 2005.

  1. Dane D. macrumors 6502a

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    ohio
    #1
    Somebody tell me why PCs are better gaming machines. I've read many posts that are raving about PC performance. Why? I play my games and wonder why. This is a Mac site and people just bash the Mac as a game platform. No reasons or explainations, just "they're no good or console play better". Come on, it is not that bad, my UT GOTY edition still plays fine, looks good, feels good. Besides, when you only use Macs and nothing else what is the griping about?
     
  2. Timelessblur macrumors 65816

    Timelessblur

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    #2
    Besides the fact that there are very few mac games for the mac

    Lets see cost is a valid answer. all macs that cost under 2k are criple by the fact that they have a POS graphic card in them. you have to go pretty high up in cost to get a desent mac to play games.

    I can build for 1k a PC that has everything you need to play games (monitor keyboard mouse, OS ext) that will blow a power mac out of the water in gaming. It 9800pro in it for it graphic card. AMD64 512 megs of ram 80-120 gig hard drive ect. for less the 1/2 the cost it takes to make a desent gaming mac I can get a good gaming PC that has a lot more games to play on it.

    I think that sums it up. Gaming is one area where Macs well just suck hard core
     
  3. Rezet macrumors 6502a

    Rezet

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    #3
    What answer are you looking for? Technicalities? Well frankly no one really knows for sure. It's rather a whole combination of things. Marketing, the percent of platform owners, previous attempts with a platform, certain differences between PCs and Macs. (Not many interested writing a brand new code for a Mac platform when they have done it for PC. This is a big work, which very smart accountants and market people calculated is not worth the trouble. That means the only way to get a PC game on a Mac is porting, which in return means lower quality).
    Then there are video cards. Now apple has gotten a decent share of video cards (drivers is another question) but looking back when first G5s came out, unless you ordered OEM card, you could only get 9800Pro Retail that didn't even have ADC out... And that was pretty much IT.

    And frankly, Steve never expressed much of an interest in Mac becoming a Gaming competitor. I think they just know that market is probably lost (at least at this point).
     
  4. Dane D. thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    Nobody is answering my question

    O.K. tired of hearing the quantity arguement. I don't care about the amount of games. Tell me why PCs are better. Everybody here seems hung up on bashing and offer no explainations. Describe the differences. The feel of the game. The frame rates. So far nobody in all the posts I've can or will discuss why. Please, I am not a computer "geek", I just want reasons.
     
  5. mrgreen4242 macrumors 601

    mrgreen4242

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    #5
    Well, it's alot of things, but I'll try and sum up the main ones...

    1) Video cards - the Mac just doesn't get the wide range of cards that the PC's do for one, and when they do they are horribly overpriced, so no one can afford to get the top end ones. AND the drivers for the Mac cards tend to be several generations behind the PC equivalents, so you aren't getting as much out of the same hardware. Furthermore, Apple seems to feel that most users don't want or need a high end graphics card (and are probably right), and so they don't put them in their machines.

    2) Crappy ports - A lot of games are written for DirectX, which is a Windows (and XBox) only API. The Mac relies on OpenGL. There's nothing wrong with OpenGL (I couldn't tell you which is better, I'm not a 3d graphics programmer), but if a game is done in DirectX, and then has to be ported over to OGL for Mac chances are it's not going to get the attention and man-hours it needs to be as fully optimized as it could be.

    And these are both a result of...

    3) Mac's only have, what, a 3% market share. Meaning that if, say, 5% of all PC owners bought a game, it would sell more than if every Mac user bought it. There isn't the potential for the huge amount of sales.

    That's my opinion on why everyone says that Mac gaming sucks... however, I don't think it's that bad really... I'm a Windows user who switched to Linux, and now I'm switching to a Mac (pinching pennies for a G5 iMac... almost there!) and the number of games available to me is going to increase liek 100 fold. I've played UT2k4 on a standard 1.6ghz iMac (256mb RAM) and it played pretty good (ie over 30fps without any real hesitation)... this is a pretty new game, and lot's of games over the coming years will likely use it's engine).

    I was/am a bargin bin gamer, meaning I never buy the newest games, I wait 'till they hit the sale prices or collectors packs for $25 each or so... given this, I will likely be enjoying gaming on an iMac for several years. If you're the type who has to have the latest and greatest game (HL2 does look pretty sweet, I will admit) Mac gaming is going to suck for you... but for the casual or bargin gamer it's not that bad at all, imo.

    Rob
     
  6. mattmack macrumors 6502a

    mattmack

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    #6
    Plus the ports have a harder time churning out the fps, but i still enjoy playing games on my mac. it is the only computer i own. I am in a distnct minority though even on this siter :p
     
  7. mrgreen4242 macrumors 601

    mrgreen4242

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    #7
    I wanted to add a question/comment/idea to this as well... I don't know what API consoles nowadays are using (except XBox, which uses DX7.1 or 8 or something), but I wonder now that all the nextgen consoles are going to be running on PPC CPUs, if any of them are using OGL as the 'default' graphics API, then I wonder what that might mean for Mac gaming? There would obviously be a lot of work to do still porting it, but the code would be optimized for the PPC instruction set already, and if it's using OGL API then the graphics layers should transfer fairly well... dunno just seems like it could usher in a new era of Mac gaming... ?
     
  8. Timelessblur macrumors 65816

    Timelessblur

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    Jun 26, 2004
    #8
    read the 2nd post. it explains that huge cost factor involved. for gaming I can make a really sweet gaming computer for 1k and to get a mac to compare in gaming powerwise you are looking at speeind 2.5K


    PC use much better graphic cards than macs and they have more hardware for it. They get the games first. There are more games. The games that are ported over at 9 time out of 10 worse quitely than they where on a PC
     
  9. Dane D. thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #9
    I've read many of your answers on other posts and wondered if you even own Mac. I don't think so, if you aren't a Mac user than how can you answer all these questions? So far, the lack of " high-end" video cards and porting of game code is all I am getting. Is there more to gaming the those two? What about cpu's and other hardware?
     
  10. Timelessblur macrumors 65816

    Timelessblur

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    Jun 26, 2004
    #10
    it is a mixture of everything. the game is limited by the bottle neck. Normaly the bottle neck is in the graphic card. Apple computers are extermly unbalcaned computer power wises. Great CPU but is cripple by POS graphic card and no mater how fast you CPU the game can only got as fast or be a good as the slowest part which is the POS graphic cards apple uses.

    That is why everyone says graphic cards. they are the limiting factor most of the time since CPU started getting ahead of them a while ago. When a computer is built it should be balanced in the speed of the CPU, The quiltly of GPU and ammount of ram used.

    Apple computers have great CPU and crappy other 2. Ram can be fix graphic card can not be
     
  11. Rezet macrumors 6502a

    Rezet

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    Connecticut, United States of America
    #11

    And I've noticed that you are a newbie here. ;) And obviously didn't see all my replies.
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=101261&page=2&pp=25


    To be more exact I had:
    Dual 1.25 G4 Tower
    12" 1.33 Pbook
    15" 1.5 Fully Loaded Pbook
    Single 1.8 G5 Loaded
    Dual 1.8 G5 Loaded
    And Currently imac 17" 1.8

    Frankly I even sold 12" pbook to one of the MR members here. Search Forums.

    Here is a pic of my fastest Mac system (1 month ago). Hope I don't have to show you receipts :cool: :)
     

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  12. mattmack macrumors 6502a

    mattmack

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    #12
    The ram (as long aas you have enough) and cpu are fine as well as the frontside bus. There is a lack of surround sound cards for the mac, but for a casual gamer who doesn't mind waiting a few months for the new games a mac is a fine gaming machine.

    I think we are going to see a shift away from computer based games towards th console gaming market. The youth is more involved in that market the major developers are developing for the consoles first and then porting to PC as well as the hardware is dedicated to gaming and gaming on a lower quality resolution (until HD takes off). If you really want to hardcore game nowadays buy a console
     
  13. mattmack macrumors 6502a

    mattmack

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    #13
    If you are talking about embedded cards then you are right, but the graphics card in my PM is good it is an ATI 9800 with 128Mb of ram. I know you will never find one in a imac, but that is why an imac is ok for gaming not great.

    There is however a very limited choice of graphics cards for the mac, but they are not all bad and they have been gaetting better
     
  14. Timelessblur macrumors 65816

    Timelessblur

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    #14

    yeah anything but the Power line. is limited and held back by the graphic card. the proline it can be solved but apple really should not have a computer of that high of lv starting out with suck a low end crappy card to begin with. but for what the average person can really aford (we say 2k max here and be nice) Macs suck big time when it comes to gaming and with the same bugget a better computer for gaming that will blow the mac out of the water with a better LCD as well speakers to boot. that pretty much sums it up
     
  15. jadam macrumors 6502a

    jadam

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    Jan 23, 2002
    #15

    Wow you just got owned by Rezet



    Ohh and porting the game is a very very very very very big deal. Its where over 90%(pulling it out of my ass, but im pretty sure it around there) of the slow down issues come from.
     
  16. Dane D. thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    ohio
    #16
    Why the negative vibes on all those former Macs?

    "Rezet
    As to your final sentence, I had too many Macs lately. Powermacs G4 and G5(single and dual), Powerbooks of all price range. So don't play "you are not a mac user" card. Currently I have iMac G5 1.8 17", which I consider to be quite crappy but it will do for what it is used for. Computer, a PC listed in the profile only because it the fastest and my current favorite performance wise."

    You come across as anti-Mac, I was just curious. I been using Macs since the MacIIcx days and can't fathom using a PC. They just don't "feel" good when using them. I have used a couple recent PC models, one running XP, a Dell desktop and the other a pieced together unit running '98.
     
  17. Rezet macrumors 6502a

    Rezet

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    #17
    I can understand why that may come across your mind. Just in the gaming section of the forums, I often reply to topics like "I run UT2004 on 700Mhz G3 ibook and get 30+ fps in Assault". And usually my replies to those are not very supportive. :rolleyes: Mac is not a bad machine. Just not a great gaming machine (overall).
     
  18. jackieonasses macrumors 6502a

    jackieonasses

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    #18
    Back when i had my G5 - assault on ut2004 got in the teens. And i agree you about the guy asking the question. Why - if he had ever version of the powerbook - would ask such a question? anyways, the port is the biggest difference. if ut2004 came out on pc first then ported, i doubt it would even run on all but the fastest macs.


    kyle
     
  19. dayos_x macrumors newbie

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    May 23, 2004
    #19
    I play games on my iMac G5. I have a PC to kick around mostly for curiosity. I will not say it's indispensible because it's not. Still, it's great that I get to fire it up from time to time to check discrepancies between Mac and PC version of the same game.

    Some of you have read (and no doubt snubbed) what I wrote in another thread about how much superior DirectX is compared to OpenGL. Well that wasn't at all my intention. I was just trying to address a problem that is sure to snowball into a bigger problem.

    I'm personally very satisfied with gaming on the Mac. It might not be as polished as on the PC, but it all depends on the video card. Let's say, you have a low end ATi or nVidia, then you're pretty much screwed. Again, refer to this page:

    http://www.tech-on.com/sc_shootout.html

    Low end PC (2GHz or lower) with a fx5200 would make it slower than an iMac G5. And an ATi, well, there's actually one other missing element that totally slipped my mind. All settings are pushed to the max.

    This is how a living room would look on the iMac...
    [​IMG]

    And on your PC with a budget ATi card...
    [​IMG]

    Anybody with a Radeon card on the PC, please post your screen grabs to verify if this is just a problem with PC's Radeon 9200.

    Also, Dane, what Mac do you have? If it's a G4 lower than 1GHz, and it's a PowerMac, then you need to upgrade. I'd recommend 1.33GHz or better. And for video card, these days you need at least a Radeon 9000. Or to go on a budget, you should get a PC GeForce 3 (Pure, not Titanium) and flash it to a Mac ROM. And bear this in mind. It has been proven that a PowerBook G4 1.5GHz can outperform an iMac G5 1.6Ghz, with just updated display driver and faster video card.
     
  20. WhiteSavage macrumors regular

    WhiteSavage

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    #20
    I think something somebody said on a REAL Mac gaming site sums it up.


    Dane D. I agree with you entirelly. There are enough Windows Box gaming sites where they Dis mac gaming, then you go around to a Mac site and they're dissing Mac gaming there too??!! I'm glad that this is the ONLY place they do it, however these same people seem to do NOTHING but diss us Mac gamers. It would be one thing if they said PC's are better if your only gonna game, and then did they're part in the forums etc. But instead you see them tell us why Mac games suck, and then wait for the next related thread. REALLY irritating, I've made my choice, and I game on my Mac. Or as the GameSpy forum nerds put it, my "Fisher Price system." And you know what? I'm happy, I wouldn't trade it for no Windows playing Virus filled crappy Dell. Thats my opinion.
     
  21. applekid macrumors 68020

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    #21
    Dane D., to be blunt, you are in the stone age of Mac gaming. Playing the original UT takes things way out of prespective. I will say that playing on the Mac feels more "comfortable" and "at home" than playing a PC. I don't know, something about playing the same PC game on your Mac just felt much better. I'd still buy a Mac over a PC any day.

    I remember your last thread touting your old PowerMac G4 and G3. Well, seeing where Mac hardware is now, you aren't quite playing what everybody else is playing. Here's a comparison:

    When we bought the first iMac G4 17-inch widescreen, the latest and greatest game was Medal of Honor. I purchased Medal of Honor with the iMac, and it ran great! There was no way anybody could complain about how well it was playing. Playing at probably a constant 30+ FPS. The only advantage of gaming on the PC then would be games came out a few months quicker and you had a bigger selection (not that those were that important to anyone).

    Fast forward to when the G5s came out... We're hanging on a GeForceFX 5200 which is utter crap with whatever current games were available then. Halo was the game that came out a little after the G5s, but still, it was slow on the stock G5s. Only if you had a Radeon 9800 or 9600 could you see the performance a Mac should have.

    So, what kind of things are people complaining about now? High-end/upgradable Macs are overpriced, hardware is overpriced, porting houses aren't doing enough, etc.

    The good news? At least people are still switching, even PC gamers. In IMG's forums, there is one ex-hardcore-PC-gamer that probably has been building his PCs for a decade or so that switched to the Mac. Why? Who wants to reinstall Windows every month? Who wants to patch up security holes? Do you actually feel safe on an OS that has tons of security holes with patches that come almost yearly unless there is a major attack? Yeah, PC maintenance is just a delight :rolleyes: That guy switched because the Mac was actually secure and gaming was not a total drag (not as bad as some people here illustrate it to be).

    My dad's company issued him a brand new PC laptop. He brought it home. I ran SpyBot and fired up the firewall. I blocked up the security holes I knew of and SpyBot did its job. I let my dad go online for 30 minutes. We can with SpyBot again. Guess what? 10 new files of spyware! Wow! It's so safe with Windows. :rolleyes:

    What I recommend? Just don't visit the Mac Gaming forum here. The most negative Mac gaming forum that I know of is right here.

    But, let me say to you, I'll always buy the Mac over the PC even if its for gaming. PC maintenance is not fun. That alone is a turn off. I think PC gamers are wasting more time optimizing their PC, overclocking hardware, cleaning the PC, patching up security holes, watching out for spyware and viruses, and reinstalling Windows than playing games. The Mac can do everything. The PC can game, but at what cost?

    Just read WhiteSavage's signature with my quote. That sums up my feelings.
     
  22. MrCommunistGen macrumors regular

    MrCommunistGen

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    #22
    My 2¢

    These might help a bit Thread#1, Thread#2

    IMHO its probably more of a software (read: imperfect OpenGL implementation & sloppy game ports) issue than a hardware issue. The processors on the PC side may be better suited to executing game code tasks (especially the A64 which seems to murder the P4 in most benchmarks), I really don't know. The G5 seems to be a potent enough processor for photoshop and the likes, so I'd think that it would probably be good at pushing pixels in a videogame, unless it was being hampered by bad code somewhere. Graphics cards shouldn't be a factor because for the most part you can get a Mac graphics card that's 'bout as fast as a PC card (as long as you have a PM G5), there are just fewer options and the cards cost a LOT more.

    my 2¢

    -mcg
     
  23. Rezet macrumors 6502a

    Rezet

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    #23
    Most negative Mac gaming forum? Perhaps. Or maybe most people are being real and don't see the world (in this case Mac gaming) through the pink glasses.
    This isn't Mac bashing forums, this is Mac gaming forum and it happens that Macs are MUCH worse at it than PCs. You want to play DOOM 3, Half-Life 2, MxO, and WOW and see those play smoothly, you have no choice but to get a PC. You want to just be "different" and play some of those games mentioned above at 3x worse quality and be proud? Knock yourself out. Not that PC users (and especially PC zealots) will feel worse because of it.


    P.S.
    BTW, if you have 10 spyware files on your PC after 30 mins of being online, you probably don't know how to protect your PC.
     
  24. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    Sod off
    #24
    This dead horse has already been beaten here, but I'll take a few whacks anyway:

    Gaming IS worse on a Mac. The reason is mostly software related. IF software developers coded games for the Mac instead of porting them, the performance difference in games between similar Macs and PC's would be negligible.

    As of today, Mac users have a decent, though small, selection of video cards and while they are not quite what I like to see they are sufficient for any of today's games.

    Apple hardware has the potential to be excellent gaming equipment. I would argue that, IF a new game like Half Life 2 (for example) was coded natively for the G5 with the same amount of attention paid to Wintel boxes, and IF Apple busted their butts to optimize the video (ahem, GeForce6800Ultra) drivers, a 2.5GHz Power Mac with one of Apple's large LCD screens could give ANY box a run for it's money at insane resolutions. likewise, lower-cost Apples could compete well against run of the mill PCs for gaming. Apple doesn't emphasize gaming when designing hardware, but good software can pick up most of the slack.
     
  25. Dane D. thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    ohio
    #25
    Wow, ask a simple question...

    "Dane D., to be blunt, you are in the stone age of Mac gaming. Playing the original UT takes things way out of prespective. I will say that playing on the Mac feels more "comfortable" and "at home" than playing a PC. I don't know, something about playing the same PC game on your Mac just felt much better. I'd still buy a Mac over a PC any day."

    I totally agree I'm in the stone-age as far as gaming is goes, but I like UT GOTY . It isn't loaded with eye candy, weak weapons and vehicles. Besides my Macs won't run new games and I have yet to purchase a newer Mac. This has helped me narrow my search tho for a newer Mac based on all the specs I've read. Like most people here my Macs have NEVER had a hardware failure or OS problems. They simply work; no worries, low maintence (Run TechTool once a month), no viruses, no spyware. Being in the graphics industry, I need the most computer I can afford that will perform flawlessly. My computers make money and down computers don't. You're right something just feels right when gaming and producing working on Macs. Thanks all for the insight to Mac gaming. Oh, Rezet, did you see the IIcx I was using in the earlier nineties, now that is slow by todays standards, It was still running everyday when we retired it.
     

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