Strange...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Frohickey, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    Remember prior to the Sept 11 attacks, the Afghan resistance fighter Masood was killed under the orders of Osama bin laden.

    Now, with prior to the recent attacks on US forces, an Iraqi cleric al-Khoei was killed, maybe under the order of al-Sadr.

    Seems that there is no stigma to ordering the killing of the competiting ideology.

    I think it was a Peter Franklin, Ben Franklin's son that was arrested for aiding the British crown during the American Revolution, but he wasn't killed on the spot, in fact, after the war, he was released, and even had a chance to reconcile with his father.
     
  2. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #2
    Sounds like proof of an Iraq - al Qaeda connection to me...

    How did everyone else miss this?
     
  3. Frohickey thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    That was not what I was trying to illustrate. Just that there is no anathema to killing, thats all.

    If you want to talk about the lack of an Iraq/alQaeda connection, I think there are plenty of other threads about that. The lack of one still doesn't change my mind about the Iraq situation... namely, GWBush should have asked for a Congressional declaration of war in both the Afghanistan and Iraq.
     
  4. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #4
    Yeah, don't change the subject -- that's Frohickey's trick.
     
  5. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #5
    Nope there sure isn't. Remember the 'Wanted: Dead or Alive' speech?

    Or were you trying to illustrate that only their side has no anathema to killing?
     
  6. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #6
    Well, Sharon has no qualms about ordering the deaths of leading Palestinians and has done so for quite some time now, about 40 years or so. I wonder how many death orders that gw has signed in the last 3 years?
     
  7. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #7
    speaking of which, the events of the past two days in iraq has felt rather israeli/palestinian to me.
     
  8. 3rdpath macrumors 68000

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    #8
    sometimes the jokes just write themselves...
     
  9. 3rdpath macrumors 68000

    3rdpath

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    #9
    there is a good chance of a comparable duration...
     
  10. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #10
    The Hundred Years' War II?
     
  11. Frohickey thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    I was trying to illustrate that their side has no anathema to killing their competition. I don't see GWBush ordering FBI agents to the houses of Senators that voted against the use of force resolution in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    Pity. Masood, from the various interviews, sounded like an Afghani version of George Washington. al Khoei might have been too. We'll never know.
     
  12. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #12
    Don't know but I know he signed a lot when he was gov. of TX!
     
  13. Frohickey thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    Texas governors do not have a whole lot of power when it comes to the penal system. At least be honest about it.

    Article 4 - EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT Section 11 - BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES; PAROLE LAWS; REPRIEVES, COMMUTATIONS, AND PARDONS; REMISSION OF FINES AND FORFEITURES
     
  14. Frohickey thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    I know that it might be an unpopular view around here, but I'd like to understand what is the repulsion for the death penalty? Sure, there are some situations where the guilt of the death-row inmate might be in question, but the system is supposed to take care of these.

    Would you support the death penalty for people whose guilt is not in question, admits to the crime, and has eye witnesses to the crime?
     
  15. Neserk macrumors 6502a

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    #15

    I believe he made it much easier to put someone to death and the governor does have a stay of execution. And from my recollection of the people he put to death quite a few of them should have had stays. No offense to those living there but TX scares the hell out of me! I prefer not to fly through or God forbid drive through that state!
     
  16. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #16
    i don't think it's the business of the state to kill people. this is independent of the flawed system. for crimes severe enough, i do support life imprisonment.

    no, for the reasons stated above.

    i do support euthanasia; i do not think the state has the right to charge someone w/ a crime for trying to kill themselves, or to interfere. i also think that person has the right to have a doctor assist, and the doctor should be able to do so w/o fear of reprisal from the state.
     
  17. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #17
    But they do out covert CIA operatives as revenge.
     
  18. amnesiac1984 macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    There is only one thing to understand, no matter how many arguments you make for it, nobody has the right to kill another human being, and nobody should do so ever under any circumstances! To make this crime punishable by death is the most hypocritical thing EVER!
     
  19. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #19
    It's not that simple - what if it turns out the witness was lying, and the accused admitted to guilt under pressure or because of a mental condition - what happens then, after the state has murdered an innocent person? These are not hypothetical situations - they happen, and this is one, but by no means the only, reason why no civalised society should allow murder.

    PS Out of interest, are you anti-abortion?
     
  20. numediaman macrumors 6502a

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    #20
    Off topic, but . . .

    Franklin's son was William. He was governor of the "Jerseys" and remained loyal to the crown throughout the Revolutionary War -- causing a rift to develop between father and son. After the war, William returned to England and he and his father were never reconciled.

    From Benjamin Franklin's last will and testament:

    To my son, William Franklin, late Governor of the Jerseys, I give and devise all the lands I hold or have a right to, in the province of Nova Scotia, to hold to him, his heirs, and assigns forever. I also give to him all my books and papers, which he has in his possession, and all debts standing against him on my account books, willing that no payment for, nor restitution of, the same be required of him, by my executors. The part he acted against me in the late war, which is of public notoriety, will account for my leaving him no more of an estate he endeavoured to deprive me of.​

    Translation: "I leave you nothing".
     
  21. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #21
    First objection. Why should we go around killing people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong? It's an exercise in hypocrisy.

    Second objection. Personally I think the death penalty is too easy for the kinds of criminal we're talking about. I'd rather they spent a good long time in a dark cell somewhere waiting to die.

    Third objection. Possibility of getting it wrong. Sure you can pose the hypothetical 'guaranteed guilty' criminal, but what percentage of your death-eligible defendants fall into this catagory? Deal with reality Frohickey, an admission of guilt is not a guarantee, nor are eyewitnesses. Both have been faked and coerced. What if the guy who says he did it has a grand 'suicide-by-cop' plan going on and as a result the real killer is free and able to kill again?

    Fourth objection. Cost. Although on a moral level cost really has no bearing on this issue, in reality it does. The cost of implementing the safeguards necessary to make sure we are only killing the guilty are, and always will be, higher than the cost of incarcerating them for life.

    Fifth objection. It doesn't prevent crime. I haven't seen anything to indicate that capital punishment reduces the incidences of capital crimes. It does however, assuage that thirst for vengence that humans seem to have in spades, and it allows polititians to claim to be 'tough on crime'.

    Killing people in any situation other than immediate self defense or immediate defense of someone else (military work excepted) is wrong. That's my bottom line.
     
  22. Frohickey thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    Nope. I'm fine with abortion. I'm against paying for someone else's abortion though. If I'm paying for a person's abortion, I should be the one that had the pleasure of the deed. :eek: :D

    Now, do I think an abortion should only be the woman's choice? I think it should be the couple's choice.
     
  23. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #23
    Any exceptions?
     
  24. Frohickey thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    Putting to death people that murder other people shows that there is value in the life of innocents, and the price for murder of innocents is the forfeiture of your life.

    Sure, the criminal justice system could get it wrong. But what do we do with the ones that kill, and kill again. Put them in a dark cell again?

    The death row inmate that is put to death will never commit another crime.

    So, too bad that the victim of the murder was not able to defend himself/herself of the murder, and kill the murderer first? Sorry, too bad, you need to kill the other one first or else you won't get justice. Oh, you are already dead, why do you need justice anyway? Maybe all of those Nazi death camp guards should not have been put to death for their role in the deaths of the Holocaust victims. They don't need justice, they are dead already. [end-sarcasm]
     
  25. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #25
    Nor will the wrongly convicted innocent. Nor will the judicial murder of an innocent show anyone that there is value in anything...
     

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