Thank you, come again.

Discussion in 'Community' started by Les Kern, Nov 16, 2004.

  1. Les Kern macrumors 68040

    Les Kern

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Location:
    Alabama
    #1
    I always had a bone to pick with Apple, how they use the "off-shore shuffle", and they DO have manufacturing overseas, but MS is actively looking to out-source coders to join 5,000+ and growing WiPro bodies who make up the bulk of tech support personel. Look at THIS article and marvel at corporate strategy run amuck. (You need a login/password for NYT articles, but you really should have one!)
    Argue all you want about outsourcing being good... it's not. As this trend picks up even more steam, as government bonds are gathering dust, and the dollar continues it's slide I have one thing to say: Buy Euros and be quick about it.
     
  2. homerjward macrumors 68030

    homerjward

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Location:
    fig tree
    #2
    is it just me or could this increase the possibility of leaked code? it seems like the more places it goes the more likely it is to get stolen or otherwise leaked
     
  3. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Location:
    Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
    #3
    While I think that some outsourcing is necessary for certain industries (Apple's continued survival at times has no doubt depended on the savings it kept from producing some models in Asia) I think that it's run amok.

    Instead of using outsourcing as a stopgap to fill a low-end market that would otherwise be too low for your operation, more and more corporations are outsourcing every level of their manufacturing to increase profit, shareholder's value and executive pay.

    Who's going to buy these goods if no one has the good-paying jobs to pay for them?
     
  4. duja_snooze macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    #5
    At the end of the day, it's in everyone's interest for companies to minimise their costs. if that means moving jobs overseas then so be it....you can't simply say americans need these jobs so that they can buy things, because that fails to realise the fact that it makes everyone worse off by keeping labour costs much higher than they would be if the jobs were 'offshored'. we live in a global economy whether you like it or not.
     
  5. PlaceofDis macrumors Core

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
  6. Chappers macrumors 68020

    Chappers

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Location:
    At home
    #7
    Get jobs in paper pushing and box ticking because thats all that will be left soon.
     
  7. apple2991 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    #8
    Whose interests? Non-US citizens interests? Interests of workers in developing countries who get paid less than a quarter as much as an American used to get paid for the same skilled job? We'll be living in a global economy when I'm a global citizen. If I could have citizenship, job access, education access, industry-wide skill standardization across international lines, then maybe. We'll be a global community when the standard of living in developing countries is higher and corporations stop abusing that and getting a cheap work force. But just because some companies operate internationally doesn't mean we are a "global economy". I don't call taking advantage of developing countries part of a global economy. If we really want a global economy to take off, like you seem to want so badly, we would in fact RAISE wages for those developing countries, like the US after WW2. High production, good wage--there is no reason this could not be applicable to an international market, if we had the production volume/labor demand. DUH.

    Plus, you're missing the point. It's not just that US companies should not be allowed to do business or establish facilities in non-US countries. But if most of a company's business is conducted in the United States (as most are), and that company is also taking away a significant amount of work force and income power from US workers, that doesn't add up, and is ethically questionable at best. What? You want us to lower our standard of living to make living wages competitive with other countries? Because that's the only way to make companies WANT to bring labor back to the US of their own volition, and that's not going to go over well with the American public.
     
  8. Les Kern thread starter macrumors 68040

    Les Kern

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Location:
    Alabama
    #9
    Having spent a considerable amount of time looking at this issue, the only folks it benefits are shareholders and upper-level management. There's a Buhddist saying: "Never make money in a way that brings harm to others." Oh, that's right, we're western. Screw em'. The ends (low prices) justifies the means (any).
    Frontline had an EXCELLENT show on last night called "Is Wal-Mart good for America?" Check it out. We are indeed a global economy, it's just that you and I were not invited.
     
  9. broken_keyboard macrumors 65816

    broken_keyboard

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Location:
    Secret Moon base
    #10
    Offshoring is just an instance of individual rights. If Bob in California wants to hire Pedro in Mexico and Pedro wants to work for Bob, then who's business is it but theirs? (provided they are not breaking the law)
     
  10. angelneo macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2004
    Location:
    afk
    #11
    Minimising cost could be a good thing. But how is an American blue collar worker going to compete with an indian blue collar worker. The unfortunate thing is that the cost of living between these 2 countries varies like day and night and it is quite impossible to expect american blue collar worker to be paid with indian standards. It is inevitable that companies always look for the best value they can buy with their money but you cannot blame americans for getting frustrated when more and more of their jobs are lost to "outsourcing" and there is nothing much that they can do.
     
  11. irmongoose macrumors 68030

    irmongoose

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Location:
    Sometimes Tokyo, sometimes California
    #12
    How am I supposed to feel? Yes, they are cheap to pay. Yes, their work is mostly under-par. I just hope people don't look at me and feel that way. Otherwise, good for them. Bad for others. Eh, what can you do? The majority elected the guy who supports this stuff. But that doesn't mean you can kill them off.

    Eh, I'm just rambling.



    irmongoose
     
  12. Les Kern thread starter macrumors 68040

    Les Kern

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Location:
    Alabama
    #13
    EXCELLENT point, but why reward the company? We know we are not a true global economy, but rather there is a scramble for dough. Look at the larger picture, and imagine where it could lead. I truly beleive the middle class will be pretty much gone in my lifetime. We'll have the HAVE'S and the NOT'S. CEO or Wal-Mart associate. Executive or $10.00/hr secretary.
    And the real power will gravitate where? To the money. Rules will be changed, power consolidated. Look at the jobs lost/gained over the last 5 years. The NOT jobs have overtaken middle-class jobs, and are continuing to rise. We lose manufacturing jobs, gain more Wal-Mart jobs. Corporate stock is a great option for the HAVE'S, the NOT'S are not invited to the show. The govt. numbers say everything looks good, but the jobs made offer vastly lower salaries. We are in fact selling our soul.
     
  13. aloofman macrumors 68020

    aloofman

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Location:
    Socal
    #14
    The whole off-shoring thing is more about rhetoric than a real concern. Of course, we'd prefer that a job stay here, but for the local who's job has been moved, it doesn't matter whether the job was moved to India or to the next state. His job is still gone and he has to find a new one.

    The number of white-collar jobs (the current popular worry) that have been off-shored is pretty small compared to the entire workforce. The U.S. economy creates and destroys hundreds of thousands of jobs every month, yet people are worried about losing 100,000 jobs over ten years. The odds are much greater that your job will be lost to new technology than to a programmer in Bangalore.
     
  14. Crikey macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Location:
    Spencer's Butte, Oregon
    #15
    Yes, you're much better off without a job but with a Wal*Mart full of cheap Chinese crap, than you are with a job and paying higher prices. Maybe Wal*Mart will throw something you want into the dumpster and you will beat the other Americans pawing through it to the prize.

    Lean times for the developed world until the Asians develop a labor movement. Oh, wait, if you try to organize workers in China, you get shot or put in a concentration camp. Some "free market".


    Crikey
     
  15. rueyeet macrumors 65816

    rueyeet

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Location:
    MD
    #16
    It's my view that things are changing on the scale of the Industrial Revolution, or the way technological progress keeps on canceling out ever-more blue-collar jobs. There are a lot of legislative and nationalistic barriers, currently, to a true "global economy", but offshoring and free trade could well be the beginning of the breakdown.

    Basically, what we have to look forward to under such a scenario is the equalizing of the industrialized, technological nations with the developing world. In the furthest extension possiblity, there eventually won't BE much of a difference, economically, between America and India.

    Only, note the pattern of most third-world or "developing" countries: A largely poor populace ruled over by an elite class who's got all the money. It's my belief that this is what the moneyed interests who are driving the outsourcing and free trade would actually like to see, no matter how they'd like to call such allegations "class warfare". Why? Because this is all about the money. It's not about lifting the poor populations of the developing world, it's about trimming the bottom line and meeting quarterly analyst expectations. It's not being done in a spirit of betterment, or any ethical spirit at all.

    And worse, all too many of the workers who have displaced Americans in manufacturing or textiles or other industries are being abused or maltreated, working as they do in countries without many (or any!) of American workforce protections and regulations, and the companies who save so much do nothing to see that it's not so.

    Yes, there's a kind of a global economy at work here. And no, I don't like it. Not one bit.
     
  16. Les Kern thread starter macrumors 68040

    Les Kern

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Location:
    Alabama
    #17
    VERY well said... I'm clapping right now.
    And the change is slow... so slow it's hard to gauge its future impact. But small steps lead to leaps, which eventually leads to a world where it will be a struggle if you are on the bottom rung. The past is filled with examples, and don't be too quick to dismiss the possibily that the US can become a nation of the have-all's and the have-little's. The middle class is the US's secret weapon, and it's being destroyed... the data proves it.
     
  17. broken_keyboard macrumors 65816

    broken_keyboard

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Location:
    Secret Moon base
    #18
    I do agree that third world governments are often corrupt and keep their citizens down, and that sucks. But people in third world countries have bigger problems than corrupt governments.

    These countries were not part of the world that went through the Renaissance and transissioned from a predominantly mystical outlook on reality to a more scientific one.

    The main thing that determines a country's fate is not the government, but the very thought processes of the people there - how they think. In these countries many people still think like they did 1,000 years ago. It is hard for us to even grasp how they view reality. Barring some major unforeseen event, I seriously doubt India will ever catch up with the U.S. (since we do not stand still either)
     

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