Thank you Obama...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by R.Perez, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    Philadelphia, PA
    #1
    The student financial aid offerings this year were AWESOME!

    Just finished accepting my financial aid award for this school year....

    The Pell grant is higher than ever, there was an extra $2000 in supplemental grants on top of the already increased Pell grant.

    There was enough offered in subsidized loans and grants, that I was able to pass on the unsubsidized ones altogether!

    Woohoo!

    Oh and the interest rates on subsidized loans are lower than ever as well, and getting lower. By 2012 the interest rate for subsidized loans will be 3.5%

    All the loans are direct from the Government! No Complaints here!
     
  2. macrumors 68040

    Badandy

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    #2
    Woo hoo, free money! Thanks so much Obama! Forget the fact that the government shouldn't be giving students money for college and the fact that our debt is ridiculously high!
     
  3. macrumors G3

    NT1440

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    #3
    All they did was keep the banks from getting free checks, student loans were mostly backed by the government anyway....
     
  4. macrumors 603

    quagmire

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    #4
    Just curious why? I would think it is a good thing for our government would help students afford to further their education.

    I know my friend who works her butt off, but will be having a hard time paying off the college she is going to. College is ridiculously expensive. Our government should encourage students to go to college and if money is a hurdle, we should give them a loan.
     
  5. thread starter macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #5
    So only kids rich enough to afford school should be able to go?

    You can't exactly work full time and go to school full time.

    I am doing a federal work study, so I do technically have a job while in school.

    Aren't you student? How do you pay for your schooling if you don't mind me asking?
     
  6. Guest

    Surely

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    #6
    Wow. What a shortsighted comment.

    This country will only get stronger with more well-trained and better educated people.

    And it's not "free money". These students earn those grants by working hard and achieving high grades.
     
  7. thread starter macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #7
    I have held a 3.97 GPA since I started College 3 years ago.
     
  8. macrumors 603

    quagmire

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    #8
    Nerd! :D Can you do my physics HW and tests please?


    :p
     
  9. Guest

    Surely

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    #9
    I'd say you've earned those grants.

    Well done.



    And..... nnnnnnneeeeeeeerrrrrrrdddddddd :D
     
  10. thread starter macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #10
    HAHAHA. While I am good at math, cruised through College algebra with an A without even doing homework (homework wasn't part of the grade, only tests), I am actually a social science major.

    I still haven't decided what I want to do, I am either going to grad school to try and become a college professor, or I am going to go to Law School.

    My Dad is an Electrical Engineer so I think that has something to do with my math whiz skills.

    Anyway, I almost flunked out of high school. I was 60 credits behind, but I made it up and graduated with a 3.5 GPA.

    Unfortunately being so behind, I graduated only doing the bare requirements, no college prep courses for me.

    After working full time for years, I got tired of feeling like I had no career path and life was a dead end.

    So at 23 I got back into school, if it wasn't for community college and financial aid, I never would of made it.

    Now I am at University of Hawaii and life is great, getting a good job at some point would be great but at this point I just LOVE learning. I have always had a passion for social and environmental justice issues. In high school no one told me you could get a degree in such things, if they had I may of done much better.

    I used to be an AP student, but lost interest at the beginning of high school. I am really glad I finally got back into it.
     
  11. macrumors 603

    quagmire

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    #11
    I know what you mean. Middle school is when I lost interest. It came back in High School and I graduated with a 3.55 GPA and had 6 credits coming into college from taking AP US History.

    I am one of the lucky ones though. I can remember things greatly and didn't often study. This enabled me to have a job through senior year get home at 9:30 PM and fall asleep and wake up at 1-3 am and go, " Oh Crap!" and do HW. Due to my ability to just remember information( including APUSH material!) I still managed to pull A's and B's.
     
  12. macrumors 68020

    bobber205

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    #12
    I hate to even say this such Badandy's usual has posts of such quality and depth, but this post sounds like something ITN would write. No reasoning for the opinion expressed and very black and white. :confused:
     
  13. macrumors 68040

    Badandy

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    #13
    It is indeed a good thing, but is it what they should be doing? Again, it really conflicts with my views on limited government. Just because something is a good cause in general does not mean that it should be the government's business to subsidize. Also, my comment was in response to a huge increase of the already very-generous grants the government gives.


    I think this issue is very black and white, though. Unless I'm mistaken, the University of Hawaii is a public university, and as such, has far lower tuition costs than private universities. What do you pay for tuition per year at Hawaii, R.Perez?

    About the ITN comparison, bobber, I wrote it in a rush before I had to do something.

    No. I can only speak about California since that's where I've lived my whole life, but we have a huge system of Cal State and University of California schools where tuition is heavily subsidized. The tuition cost of these places (especially if you do two years at state school and transfer to a UC) is not prohibitive for people who work and/or whose parents put something away. The costs are remarkably low compared with private universities and, like I said before, definitely possible with the previously dedicated resources for this purpose.

    What do you do? What's the time requirement?

    A combination of things including merit-based scholarships, organization scholarships, my money, and my parents' money that they've saved for this purpose. If my financial situation were different, however, I would have done two years at a cal state system (about $5,000 per year in tuition) and then two years at a UC.
     
  14. macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #14
    When you start opposing things that you agree are "good" for nothing more than the sake of ideology it's time to question the validity of the ideology.
     
  15. macrumors 68040

    Badandy

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    #15
    The problem is that there exists an immeasurable number of good things. If the government invested in every single cause that some segment of the population found worthwhile and beneficial it would need to spend an even more obscene amount of money per year. That money has to come from somewhere and it would have to come from increased taxes, which would come disproportionately from the wealthy. Now, I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a lower tax burden for all segments of the population and more discretionary money to spend/invest on the things I value. The day we give the government carte blanche (if we haven't done so already) to invest in everything they think is worthwhile (read: anything even a couple constituents ask for) is the day where they cease to even have the concept of fiscal responsibility in the back of their minds.
     
  16. macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #16
    Nobody claimed the government should be involved in everything that is good. This is a strawman. On the contrary. Each and every initiative by the government should be weighed up by it's pros and cons and the good it does society overall for the cost. Blanket rejection on the grounds of ideology adds nothing constructive and is an intellectual cop-out.

    As exciting as talk of "tax burdens" are, investing in things like education and healthcare more than pays for itself in the "tax burden" long run and benefits the whole of society financially and socially. I'd rather everyone receives education and healthcare than a few dollars more for personal discretionary spending. Nobody is about to run out of spending money.

    This is the same strawman as the first paragraph.
     
  17. thread starter macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #17
    Wow its amazing to me that you fail to recognize the positions of privelage that you enjoy and has allowed you to have the position that you are in. You talk about the cost of school as if tuition is the only burden. Tuition for me is 11,500 a year and just my rent is another 13,000 a year on top that. The so called generous pell grant of $5500, hardly covers it. I will write more when I'm not typing on a phone.
     
  18. macrumors 68040

    Badandy

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    #18
    I'll agree with this as long as you understand that it's my view that society would be greatly benefited by a government that intrudes, excises, and influences as little as possible.

    For example, Person A has $100 and Person B has $50. Would you view it as a societal good for $25 to be transferred from A to B? In my view, you'd weigh the pros and cons, much like you said. A "pro" would be that Person B is better off than before while a "con" would be that the money might have been taken from Person A in a way that is either unfair or would result in a mindset that someone else might view as undesirable. Similarly, while dedicating an increasing amount of our country's perilously strained budget to university grants might be something you think is worthwhile, many others would find an increasingly excising and dependency-creating (the loss of money that can be spent with individual discretion to pay for more government services) government a long-term societal problem.


    Yes, it is.

    Yep, you know my exact position and how appreciative or unappreciative I am for the things I have in life.

    And you talk about the cost of shelter as something the government should provide you with or subsidize you for.
     
  19. macrumors 6502a

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    CA
    #19
    I completely agree with weighing the advantages and disadvantages of government programs and it is exactly why generous student aid is a problem. I want as many people to get a good education but guaranteeing loans and giving grants does not necessarily achieve that end. College didn't use to be prohibitively expensive before the government took a larger role in higher education. This video gives a good explanation of the economic impact of government guaranteed student loans (and grants).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIcfMMVcYZg

    Basically, the argument shouldn't even be about wealth transfer from the have to the have nots. The benefit that is derived from the loans and grants are not even worth it. As a percentage of the average worker's wage, college tuition has skyrocketed since the government tried to take cost out of the equation. Now, students can't afford college without these programs when before they could have worked a part time or summer job to pay for all their school costs. The only difference is that the students are stuck with a much larger bill. The video gives some statistical figures.

    By the way, I'm not crapping on R.Perez for what he's getting. I think everyone should try to get benefits they qualify for while they still can. I've enrolled in a masters program in large part for financial reasons, to defer my enormous law school debt.
     
  20. macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #20
    Frankly this is a ridiculous example and not even remotely what we are talking about. Nobody even mentioned the prospect of equalising pay across society or just to make people "more well off".

    The basic premise of education (and one that is tried and tested) is one of increasing the skill set of the individual and making them more employable in the long term. Education absolutely does not make people "dependent" on the government. Again the catchy ideological talking points are overtaking intelligent discussion.

    I can't watch your video where I am unfortunately but I'm incredibly wary of any source that puroports a single cause of rising cost. It's no doubt that some programs (govt or otherwise) whilst well-intentioned have negative consequences, which is why any program put into action needs to be periodically reviewed, audited, and dynamic.

    Catchphrase of "wealth transfer" aside, when it comes to education providing equitable access is something we should definitely strive for. The "have nots" as you put them are the one's must vulnerable to economic downturns. They're the one's least likely to have access to education. They're the one's least likely to come from a situation where there is an emphasis on education. They're the one's least likely to be in the position to take on education. Educating the "have nots" is a boon for the whole of society. It increases the GDP (benefits everyone), decreases unemployment rates long-term (benefits everyone), decreases crime rates (benefits everyone) and on and on. And I most certainly support any rational intervention that tries to accomplish this.
     
  21. thread starter macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    Philadelphia, PA
    #21
    Actually higher unemployment is good for most employers.

    An over saturated job market leads to lower pay and more work hours each individual person has to put in.

    Unfortunately high unemployment is bad for everyone else.
     
  22. macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #22
    Yes, but out of the two choices, the relative benefit to society overall of low unemployment is far better than high unemployment.

    edit: There's also more to it than just money. Crime, health etc.
     
  23. thread starter macrumors 6502

    R.Perez

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    #23

    I completely agree with you, and did so when I wrote that post.

    I am simply pointing out the inequality in the fact that what is good for the employer is not necessarily good for the employee.
     
  24. macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #24
    Excuse me? That's exactly what the government should be doing, not fighting stupid wars.

    BTW- I went to school on Pell grants, and was homeless a few times during. :mad: Don't push it. You have really pissed me off. You have no clue what you're talking about.
     
  25. macrumors 68020

    bobber205

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    #25
    What are students of poverty supposed to do? Does badandy seriously think everyone has this money magically saved up at all times? Sure you may start saving up when they're born, but what if there's a medical emergency or something and you have to use that money for something else?

    College should be accessible to everyone, regardless of income level.
     

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