The Chicken and the Egg

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by michaello, Sep 10, 2003.

  1. michaello macrumors newbie

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    #1
    I bomb you cause you bombed me - you bomb me cause I bombed you.

    You blame me - I blame you.

    Neighbors take sides and blame each other, until the situation escalates and spirals out of control.

    Politics and emotional alliances create arguments upon arguments until words don't matter anymore. Communication is impossible.

    Reason and compassion are dead. All that exists is the violence and blame. Both sides claim their innocence and rationalize their violence through “victimization”.

    Is there an end-point to the Chicken and the Egg scenario?
     
  2. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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    #2
    Re: The Chicken and the Egg

    The only true end to this scenario, and most people will dissagree with it, is to not participate. Or in the words of Jesus Turn the other cheek.

    This will never happen at the national level, ther is too many people who demand revenge, not justice. Because of this, anytime we feel wronged, we must exact revenge. It's not enough to capture the culprets and bring them to justice, we have to go many steps further, and decimate the terrorists with 2,000 lb Bunker Busters, and threaten Nukes.

    That is the way of the world, and all I can do is end violence in my personal space if you will. And advocate others to do the same. It's not worth it to exact revenge.
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #3
    Logic requires justice. Emotion requires revenge. Keep emotion out of the equation.
     
  4. michaello thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #4
    "Keep emotion out of the equation."

    Yeah - This administration's worst nightmare is that we "keep emotions out of the equation".

    John Ashcroft was in New York yesterday, speaking in a "closed door conference" with a bunch of lawmakers, and he basically said that we had "forgotten" our rage that we felt two years ago, today.

    Basically, that's what he said - in New York City, two days ago, he had the ignorance to say that.

    He meant if we would only remember our rage, we’d see that his Patriot Act was just.

    Maybe if we keep emotion out of the equation, he and his Patriot Act will go back where they came from, so that we can begin to make some progress - instead of going back to the Dark Ages.
     
  5. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #5
    Re: The Chicken and the Egg

    entropy in a closed system can never decrease.

    the israel-palestinian conflict requires external help.

    the War on Terror requires external help.

    until we can find that external help, no, there is no end.
     
  6. michaello thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #6
    But ... unless you're Thich Nhat-Han, it's really difficult not to get pissed off.

    I just surfed around to a few "news networks" and read about this new al Qaeda tape that surfaced, and this is what they reported the voice on the tape said:

    "Those who don't agree with killing, then let them step out of the way. I would say to them, those who are afraid of climbing mountains will live in pits and holes."

    See, I read something like that and I "remember" the rage I felt at what went down in my city - and all of a sudden, John Ashcroft's freako words bop around in my head and I say to myself, "This guy has a point ... "

    ... Wait a minute ...

    See - it's extremely confusing, this Chicken and Egg thing.

    I'm going to sleep.
     
  7. michaello thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #7
    "until we can find that external help, no, there is no end."

    Right. Exactly.

    We need either Thich Nhat Hanh or an extremely strong, objective and perceptive high-powered marriage counselor.

    Or, maybe this is where the spacemen from Planet Cool-The-Hell-Out step in for some serious mediation.

    No, really - Where have all the "wise men of influence" gone to?
     
  8. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #8
    Re: "until we can find that external help, no, there is no end."

    clinton's on the talk circuit and krugman is still writing his column. not sure what former senator paul simon is doing. gore is on apple's board.
     
  9. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #9
    Re: Re: "until we can find that external help, no, there is no end."

    why do we have to limit this to "wise men"? I love listening to Bush's fellow Texans, Ann Richards and Molly Irvins. ;)
     
  10. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #10
    Re: Re: Re: "until we can find that external help, no, there is no end."

    ah! you caught me!

    i was going to add madeline (sp?) allbright (sp?) to the list, but wasn't sure on the spelling. so i deferred to the male-only implication.

    likewise on the spelling of donna shelelah (sp?)
     
  11. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #11
    Re: Re: Re: Re: "until we can find that external help, no, there is no end."

    zim, I couldn't spell either of their names as well.
     
  12. michaello thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #12
    Yeah, I guess there are people out there speaking, but no one seems to be making a dent or reaching a wider scope.

    Whether it’s Clinton or Gore or Dean or Whoever, it’s there one minute and then it’s gone. There doesn’t seem to be a continuation of anything, cause it’s all focus groups and sound bites and two minute nonsensical “debates” on Crossfire and all that.

    John and Yoko sat in bed and did nothing and the whole world watched.

    People are caught up in their own lives, their own struggles, and unless it's a huge thing, some scandal or something, it's a distant cry in the wilderness. Even the buzz on Franken's book came and went very quickly. Soon, it's Bill O'Reilly's book, then it'll be Michael Moore's book, then its Bill Maher’s book, then its "Survivor" - it's all a wash.

    Unless it's some whacko story on CNN that's pumped out every hour on the hour for weeks at a time, it doesn't make a dent.

    It's either on the plate and in your face or it's in the garbage.

    That's why when the Democrats call Bush on letting the top one percent of the population help pay for the war by "postponing" their tax cuts, Bush can so easily deflect it with one sentence, and you never hear about it again, cause it's gone away like a leaf in the wind.

    The entire population of this country is turning into this huge "shredder" of information - nothing registers, cause the next piece of information is already halfway down our throats before we have time to consider it.

    In fact, I just forgot what the hell I was writing about.
     
  13. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #13
    The problem is that it only takes one to start a fight. It takes two to stop.

    As long as a political or religious ideologue is convinced of his self-righteousness, turning the other cheek merely means that the dead bodies will keep piling up. To me, that means you either take measures to stop it, or you get used to going to funerals.

    I've already been to too darned many funerals...

    'Rat
     
  14. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #14
    'Rat, you are correct in your assesment. The devil is in the "measures" you take. What measures can we take that will prevent terrorism? Hunting down and killing them only goes so far, and even as we decimate the upper ranks of groups like alQuaeda they recruit more people to take the place of those who are gone. I am not of the opinion that we can kill every single terrorist out there. At some point we are going to have to address the concerns of the pool of people the terrorists recruit from to dry it up. As long as they can recruit faster than we can kill them, we're screwed. In this situation, the terrorists are winning until they lose, and we are seen as losing until we win. It's the nature of asymetrical warfare.
     
  15. michaello thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #15
    But, there must be some way to go to the source of the problem instead of trying in vain to plug up all the holes - cause once you plug up one hole, ten more holes appear.

    Some course of “preventative medicine” would not only attack the symptoms, it would attempt to deal with the root cause of the problem. And I think we ought to do that with reason instead of with brute force. The more aggressive we are, the more their aggression will grow.

    It’s like dealing with a psychotic. Reason works better than yelling, “Stop being insane or I’ll kill you, you sonofabitch!!!” That just doesn’t work. It only makes things worse.

    It’s true, even if we capture or kill their top figures, there are thousands more waiting in line to die for that post. Here, young people dream of being rock stars - there are parts of the world where young people dream of being suicide bombers.

    I don’t think it’s possible for us to do the job of convincing them that they should change their point of view. I don’t see that happening. They hate us. It's like trying to reason with a tornado, at this point.

    If the change doesn’t come from within their structure and culture, the situation is not going to change.
     
  16. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #16
    (bad analogy time)

    it's like having a War on Young Pop Divas and thinking it'll be over once Britney and Christina have retired.
     
  17. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #17
    Don't ever put the Great Christina Aguliera in the same sentence as that pretender Britney! The Grand and Glorious Christina has a legitimate voice, but .... Sorry, Waluigi, I couldn't resist! :p
     
  18. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #18
    You ever notice that revolutionaries and terrorist leaderships are from among the well-to-do and well-educated? The "foot soldiers" may be from among the poor and disaffected, but not those at the top of the pyramid.

    Whether Communism or Militant Islam, these abstractions are of very great ideological importance to some, far beyond what most of us ever feel. And when the motivation for an act like that at the WTC stems directly from Osama bin Laden's hatred of our people merely being on the "sacred ground" of Saudi Arabia, what rational policy change can avoid such ideas? (That's his stated reason, folks.)

    Where is it written that Al Qaida runs Saudi Arabia and all the rest of the Islamic world? Where is it written that all western nations should cease their "profaning" of Islamic nations--I guess by removing all diplomatic and trade entities?

    I love peace and quiet as much as anybody. Heck, my last fight was during high school, 52 years back. That doesn't mean I can't defend myself or that I wouldn't use deadly force if necessary.

    Who was it, Cicero? Said something on the order of, "If you would have peace, be prepared for war?" Smart man. The obvious problem, of course, is that too many "leaders" follow policies which can make wars both inevitable and too often...

    'Rat
     
  19. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #19
    Hitler.

    Oops. There went that argument.
     
  20. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #20
    Washington, Franklin, Paine, Lenin, Trotsky, Ghandi, Castro, Ho, Mao, bin Laden...Oops! There went pseudobrit's objection!

    :D:D:D

    'Rat
     
  21. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #21
    'Rat,
    I think you answered your own question in your question. Leadership often demands a certain level of education and in many countries that is restricted to those of at least modest means.
     
  22. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #22
    Well, sure, Sayhey, but I feel that all too often folks go to talking about revolutionaries coming mostly from the poor and downtrodden of some country, and ignore the issue of whence cometh the inciters.

    Now, those without hope are indeed ripe for incitement; what do they have to lose but their lives--which are already considered meaningless by existing regimes. They are willing foot-soldiers, and by and large I don't blame them. (My objection is to the ideology of their leaders.)

    'Rat
     
  23. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #23
    'Rat, as I said, leadership often has certain requirements, such as literacy and the ability to use the dominant language. It is a jump to then say that somehow those leaders are demagogues that sway the "unknowing masses." Do such people exist? Sure, not to far from you in the fair state of Lousiana there was a great example of one of the most skilled at bamboozling the public, in the person of Huey Long. However, there are also leaders such as Martin Luther King, Jr. and others who use the tools of education for the benefit of others. The class background of leaders seldom has anything to do with the validity of the cause.
     
  24. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #24
    and then there's pol pot, who simply killed everyone smarter than him.

    too bad it had to be so many people.
     

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