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Discussion in 'Apple TV and Home Theater' started by Hellhammer, Sep 1, 2010.
Yeah, unbelievable. And Jobs said we're in the middle of the HD revolution...
Well, at least 720p revolution.
Well if we are going to be honest and pay attention to the details, he said the HD revolution is OVER, HD is here.
The ONLY thing that handles 1080P is a bluray player. All implementations of HDTV is 720P or 1080i (540 lines at a time, not as good as 720P). Like HDTV on HBO? That's 720P. Etc, etc, etc...
1080P is about 50% more bandwidth than 720P.
Come on people, it looks great! Just enjoy it.
Actually, computers and laptops handle 1080p just fine as well...
It should be double the bandwidth (> 10 Mbps for 1080p, which most people don't have reliably) if you want to maintain quality, there are over 2x as many pixels. You can drop the bitrate down to compensate, but that introduces more artifacts so it's not really worth it.
But yeah, 720p with good encoding, on a good, calibrated monitor, looks great.
Yes, but it has to be streamed, that's the hard part (and the expensive part, even if people did have a connection that could handle it).
I just want the menus in 1080p at least, I like when stuff is nice and crisp at the native resolution of my HDTV.
Right... but no 1080P content is streaming.... I could've worded it better.
The only content you are seeing on your HDTV that is 1080P is coming from a bluray disc. All TV is at best 720P (better than 1080i - 540 lines at a time).
People, 720P looks great... just enjoy it... sheesh....
Exactly, there is very little appreciable difference between 720p and 1080p ESPECIALLY if you sit at the recommended distance from your TV. At that distance, your eyes can't actually make out the individual pixels. Hence..point is moot.
Ok got it. Np. I wasn't thinking about streaming. Thanks.
Absolutely false. In the US cable providers, AT&T Uverse, Dish Network and Direct TV have Video On Demand of current DVD/BD releases available in true 1080p. I can definitely see the difference. The only thing Apple TV offers is the ability to stream the music I have on Macs through iTunes and my photo albums through iPhoto and perhaps Aperture.
Sorry, dude, but your statement, while technically true, doesn't tell the whole picture and doesn't address the comment that you quoted in your reply. Any VOD 1080p program that you download will feature a significantly lower bit rate than the BR version. Accordingly, the PQ as compared with BR will suffer. And these are for movies. All content on the networks is either 720p or 1080i. Period. If it's being displayed to you in 1080p it is being upconverted...you are not getting a better picture than a person watching it from an antenna.
You say you can see the difference. Between what exactly? A well mastered 720p movie and a 1080p one? If so, I'd say you're sitting pretty close to your set...
This is the problem with HD formats. 1080p, IMHO, is a major marketing ploy for the most part (with BR content being the exception). People gush over how great 1080p is, but it's a worthless stat. Here's the facts:
1080p refers to resolution, or number of pixels. All this means is that you can sit closer to a 1080p set before you can start to see the individual pixels. That's it. The quality of a HD picture is much more dependent on black levels, color reproduction, contrast ratio, etc. If you need proof, compare a Panasonic 720p TV to a no-name 1080p TV. Odds are the picture on the Panny will be better. If your talking about downloaded or streaming movies, a high bit rate 720p movie can be just as good as an average bit rate 1080p movie.
^^^ I agree with this. I have content across the board - 1080p, 720p, 480 from DVDs, and the quality is all over the map. Sometimes I can tell a difference on a good 1080p BR or rip, but it's not enough for me to get all upset about a $99 device leaving it out. I'm a Netflix customer, I have tons of DVDs (to be ripped) and 720p content - this thing gives me quite a lot of capability for what amounts to one night out at the bar.
And since it's Apple, I know it'll integrate well with my existing hardware and not feel kludgy.
1. Source material mastering makes a big difference and I do realize that even Superbit DVDs of yesteryear are better than some BR mastering of today. The assumption here is that you compare apples to apples and not oranges. Therefore, you compare comparable source material. BR should offer a bit rate of 16-20 Mbps at 24fps. So that is the standard.
2. Compare 1080p to 720p source material on a color calibrated display, one that is capable of native 1080p at 24fps, with a proper gray scale and correct ambient lighting. My display is a 2008 67" Samsung HLN67A750 LED based DLP that I calibrated according to the mandarins of the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) recommendations. Its no longer made, but is great watching from 15' on-axis. ISF recommends minimum on-axis viewing distance of 2-3 times the diagonal of calibrated display.
3. To achieve the bit rate of nearly BR, the VOD movie is downloaded to a HDD based DVR that you have access to for 24 hours. This is available today and there is a noticeable difference between properly encoded 720p and 1080p source material. This is what is possible and by Apple removing the HDD in Apple TV, they eliminated the possibility of downloading high bit rate true 1080p/24fps video. Further, I think you're making the false assumption that all 720p video on AppleTV will be properly encoded and have the correct bit rate. It too will vary, but it will be inferior to the 1080p downloaded VOD that is offered by some service providers.
Uverse has 1080p? Where? I can't find it. All I see is SD 720P and 1080i. In fact on their website 1080p is stated as NOT being an option. Fact check my man.
Apple TV menus, graphics, artwork, etc are in 1080p and have been for years. Also, it outputs at 1080p therefore scaling all your 720p content to 1080p if you so choose.
It's plain and simple: with comparable bit rates (relative to the number of pixels), from the same source, a 720p video and a 1080p video will have little appreciable difference at the recommended distance.
NOTE: i'm not saying that there isn't ANY difference, for the discerning eyes it's more or less clear as day, but in most cases, my discerning eyes really couldn't give half a crap, if it's 1080p, then yay, if it's not, no biggie. Also, the box is $99, which is nice. I'll be getting two.
Another caveat, as a consequence of having lower powered devices, low h.264 profiles don't look as good. The TV only takes 3.1 Main Profile, is very decent, but a profile like 5 is sheer brilliance, even at the same bit rate.
So say what you want, it's cheap, it's pretty and it's connected nicely to iTunes. It beats the 300$ old TV and if you want quality? Buy a PS3 or buy a Mac Mini or buy a HTPC.
Bing vudu hdx
Some of the good folks in this forum give short shift to the Vudu box. I've been using one for over six months. Their HDx is true 1080p. Outstanding on my LG 1080p 42". Really nice on my ViewSonic 1080p projector. I got the whole Vudu system (one tb drive, wireless) for the coincidental price of $99 on e-bay, new.
No, what? I don't know where you get the "near BR" DVR type downloads, but it sounds like it takes a while to download these files. If it is indeed near BR in bit rate, than I can imagine why...though calling it VOD at that point would seem a little silly. More like video a day later
At any rate, I agree...one must compare apples to apples. I do this by encoding a BR to my current ATV and comparing that file to the BR itself. On my calibrated Sammy PN58C7000, the difference is often difficult notice from about 10 feet. The studies back up that observation.
I stand by my previous statement...resolution is secondary and is only related to the number of pixels displayed. What we are concerned with the quality of the encode. If that is sufficient, then resolution becomes a tertiary consideration after seating distance.
I tried to Vudu app on my new Sammy...looked great. They also have some 3D trailers that looked pretty tight in 1080p. What codec is their streaming content in?
The majority of people aren't going to think twice about buying this box because it's priced for the masses. These are not the people who care about 720 vs 1080p or know what ISF calibration means.
Actually both the Xbox 360 and the PS3 both offer 1080p 5.1 instant-on movie rentals.. Sure, they're compressed, but so are Apple's movie rentals - so if we compare compressed 1080p with compressed 720p, The compressed 1080p wins (I tested Xbox 360 old 720p vs. new 1080p) and seriously it wouldn't cost Apple much at all to offer rentals in 1080, especially with tiny broadcom HD accelerators powerful enough to handle the content...
And like people have said, the menus themselves won't look as nice in 720p as they would in 1080p. Why couldn't they at least make that 1080p!? MP4 720p with STEREO sound for non-rentals?? seriously?? They couldn't at least allow 5.1?!
Its my only gripe with the Apple TV (apart from the fact that its £99 pounds here!!) and its a real shame, because i know that a year later it'll "magically" have 1080p on iTV Gen 2.
I wouldn't be so sure that it'll have 1080p next year either.
If it bothers you so much then go buy one of these alternative systems. There is plenty of choice in the marketplace. Me, I am perfectly happy with 720p. The HD movie rentals on the current Apple TV look stunning to me.