The Qur'an Needs to be Flushed?!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Punani, May 24, 2005.

  1. Punani macrumors regular

    Punani

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    #1
    http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt

    Do these folks ever stop? I find it amusing that these people are so wholly obsessed with attacking Islam in the name of Christendom, that it feels like the Tenth Crusade.

    Of course, I'm sure the Crusaders were much more civil when they sacked Jerusalem in the First Crusade than when Saladin took it back 88 years later, right?
     
  2. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #2
    Disgusting. The very definition of The Ugly American.
     
  3. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #3
    I would support flushing the Koran. But only if it was first shoved up that pastor's ass to be **** out.

    Sorry. That's mean, and un-Christian. Like Rev. Lovelace.
     
  4. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

    Xtremehkr

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    #4
    Religion has little if anything to do with the real reasons behind terrorism.

    Reminds me of the movie Kingdom of Heaven. That's not very encouraging though, because that holy war has been continuing for 1100 years.
     
  5. Punani thread starter macrumors regular

    Punani

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    #5
    The roots of the current political status in the Middle East have a lot to do with World War I and a little thing called the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916.

    The British and French promised Arabs a unified nation-state if they supported and helped the destruction of the Ottoman Empire (on the side of Germany). They lied and instead wrote a secret agreement to create spheres of influence in the Middle East for themselves. (Map)

    Notice something about that map? Doesn't it look oddly the current borders? These have no historical logic to them, at all. And this desire for a true Arab state is a large part of the chaos of the Middle East.

    I think we should thank the British and French governments, don't you?
     
  6. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

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    #6
    Just reading an interesting book, The History of God by Karen Armstrong, which investigates the development of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim understanding of and teaching of the one God.

    In it, she writes (and I paraphrase, with the caution that I am not educated in this area and am not Muslim -- I would welcome additional insight.)

    The Koran is equivalentto the Logos in Christianity.
    The Logos (the Word) in the Christian tradition was made incarnate in Jesus, in Islam the Logos is manifest in the Koran.

    So I think that the Koran is revered as much more than a holy book (while the Christian Bible, although a holy book, is not itself seen as an embodiment of God), perhaps mistreatment of the Koran would be in the Christian world more along the lines of putting the consecrated Host on a toilet.



    Re: That minister's sign: The capacity of people to hate what they don't understand continues to astound me.
     
  7. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

    Xtremehkr

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    #7
    Oh there is no doubt they started this, lots of European nations have been involved with the ME. The US is spearheading the effort right now though.

    You think that they would learn by now.
     
  8. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #8
    i'm trying to think of a legitimate reason for this guy to put that on his siqn. his sermon title perhaps? but why would he do that? spreading ill-will is not taught by jesus. it certainly would't convert the uninitiated, the only bass-ackwords reasoning i can think of.

    it's also worth noting that the bible holds no more legitimacy than the koran as being "the word". just one book of stories and ancient laws disagreeing with another.
     
  9. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #9
    It's very reminiscent of bushco's "bring 'em on" message.

    Couldn't this be considered as aiding and abetting terrorism?
     
  10. feakbeak macrumors 6502a

    feakbeak

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    #10
    This guy is most likely an ignorant a$shole, but I can respect that he has every right to think a book should be flushed down the toilet. Could he exercise better judgement and be more sensitive about others' religious beliefs? Sure, but he doesn't have to be respectful.

    I am a strong proponent of the freedom of speech. This board leans to the left in general - so do I. Imagine if someone said you shouldn't call George W. an idiot - that it is not appropriate. I'm sure he, his family and his friends find that quite offensive. The Neo Nazi's say that blacks are inferior, that Jews are horrible and much worse things as you well know. Some far-right Christians calls gays defective. It's okay to offend to people. People need to learn that is okay to be offended. You can think and say whatever you want. It's nice to try to do it in appropriate and respectful ways, but you don't have to be nice. All you have to do is be sure not to infringe upon other peoples rights.

    Flushing the Koran, a physical object - a collection of paper with markings on it, down the toilet is not a crime, nor should it be. Rioting becuase you are upset over what someone halfway around the world has done to some bound paper and in the process causing innocent deaths is another story.

    I don't like what this moron is saying, but he has every right to say it, or even flush one himself. However, I am compelled to defend his right to express himself as long as he's not infringing on the rights of others.
     
  11. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

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    #11
    Thanatoast, what I am trying to say (from my unqualified position as a non-Muslim) is that for believers, the Koran is not simply a book that has laws and parables and teachings from the Apostles (and not just paper with words on it, feakbeak).

    The Koran *is* The Word, the uncreated and ever existing Logos, which is God (Allah). In Christian belief, the Word was given to mankind as Jesus Christ; in Islam the Word was given to mankind as the Koran. So (in my limited understanding) the Koran is "part" of God - in the same way that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also God as the Trinity.

    Which is why your earlier post positing an assault on the Rev. with the Koran (even in jest) is as deeply offensive as the Rev.'s sign was.
     
  12. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #12
    if i follow you, you're saying that an american flushing the koran down the toilet is as offensive as an arab flushing a second-coming jesus christ down the toilet.
     
  13. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

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    #13
    The analogy I used earlier was someone taking the consecrated host from communion and flushing it but the principle is the same. (Again, I disclaim any authority on the matter, I just happen to be studying on the subject at the moment)

    The point I am getting at is that one can't assume "it's only a book, a physical object" or dismiss the impact of the gesture, when one has no grasp of the beliefs of the people for whom it is sacred. A pale, pale reflection would be saying "it's only a piece of cloth" when someone desecrates a country's flag.
     
  14. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #14
    I agree. However, I have the right to call his sign disgusting and offensive.

    FWIW, I didn't see anyone here saying he didn't have a right to say what he said. We're just expressing our disagreement.
     
  15. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #15
    and that's a pretty big problem, imo.

    recently, someone here (i think) did pose the question of, if christ came back to earth, what the administration's reaction would be. e.g. would he be locked up as a hippie traitor? and it may be funny only to me, but i did get a chuckle out of the image of a couple arabs giving jesus a swirlie.

    but i'm a heretic like that.

    hey, when's the last time we all had a rousing flag-burning amendment discussion?
     
  16. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #16
    Funny that practicing Christianity in many of the ME regions is a very precarious thing. Effectively making the bible and christian literature "trashed".

    I don't believe anyone should be messing with a Koran, Bible, or Torah.

    edit: this "precher" has problems
     
  17. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #17
    Piss Christ anyone? That offended quite a few people as I recall.
     
  18. feakbeak macrumors 6502a

    feakbeak

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    #18
    I understand that some people hold a great deal of meaning in these symbolic items. So much that the desecration of these inanimate objects is enough to incite violence within them. I personally find such beliefs to be immature and ignorant. A flag is just a cloth and a holy text is just bound paper. They are symbolic and represent ideas and concepts.

    My point is that people should value the ideas, not the symbols. You may find some value in the symbols and so burning a flag or a book may offend you. Again, it is okay to be offended. You don't have to start attacking, verbally or physically, those who desecrate symbols that you hold value in.

    In short, is this insensitive? Yes.
    Is this offensive? Yes.
    Would I do this? No.
    Do I think this jackass has every right to do it? Yes.

    The real problem arises when we condition ourselves to react defensively/offensively to being offended. I think the best approach is to have a strong foundation based on clearly defined personal liberties that should not be infringed upon by the state or by others. This would include the freedom of expression/speech.
     
  19. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #19
    ...and threatened NEA funding, as i recall.
     
  20. feakbeak macrumors 6502a

    feakbeak

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    #20
    You sure do, and I would agree with you in that sentiment.

    You are correct. It just seemed that all the reactions were so negative. Yes, he's a complete idiot! However, I get worried whenever there isn't a voice standing up for the right to express ideas, even if they are stupid ideas. Nobody here explicitly said he shouldn't be allowed to express it, but also nobody explicitly said "Yeah, he should be able to express this view. He's an idiot, so what?" So that is why I was chiming in with my comments.
     
  21. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

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    #21
    I'm glad you are above that.
    I trust you have the same opinion of crowds who riot when their hockey/baseball/football team wins or loses, or when a rock concert is cancelled.
    How about crowds that are protesting a war or discrimination or a civil injustice? What if one crowd is at Kent State in Ohio, one is in Uzbekistan and another is in Kabul?

    To you.

    You make my point and demonstrate the limitations of a particular worldview.
     
  22. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #22
    i understood that. in my first post i ignored the implications, and in my second post i let my personal opinion color my response.

    *in my opinion*, neither book has legitimacy as the absolute truth, no matter it's spiritual form.

    in regards to the reverend, he hurts his own cause with such antics. assuming his cause is the same as jesus', namely understanding, respect and peace.
     
  23. feakbeak macrumors 6502a

    feakbeak

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    #23
    I don't care for sports much at all and cannot understand those riots to save my life. At least when it comes to religion it is something much more significant. I love music and concerts, but wouldn't riot over a cancelled concert.

    Demonstrations can be peaceful, but peaceful demonstrations can turn into riots. You take a group of people with strongly held personal beliefs and add "group think" and riots can easily happen. It does not make it acceptable. I am more of a pacifist, but I understand sometimes there is a need for war... but not over flushing a book or burning a flag.

    I am not saying I am above similar behavior, I can't think of any physical objects I place extraordinary value on, but I'm sure I could come up with something. I could also participate in a riot given the right cause and the right circumstances. Yes, that makes me a hypocrit, most of us are. I still think if the destruction of an object leads you to violence you are acting immaturely. If I did it, I would be immature too. My belief that it is immature has nothing to do with whether or not I am capable of the same thing. I'm a flawed, screwed up human being just like everyone else. Besides, even if I did think I was above that, in the forums we're supposed to stick to attacking ideas, not people.

    No, not just to me, this is a fact. Flags, books... they are just matter - composed from the same atoms as everything else. The symbolic meaning behind these objects is what should be valued not the objects themselves. The holy words of the Koran can be written on any piece of paper, it doesn't make the paper any more special. It is the ideas that have value.

    You must also realize that I have stated several times that I too find this act offensive and stupid. I would never do such a thing as I am rather respectful of other people's religions for the most part. However, I will still defend this guy and his right to be an insensitive jerk.
     
  24. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #24
    As you have pointed out, no one is saying he doesn't have the right to do this. But he has the responsibility to be more careful with what he says because of his position. And we have the right and responsibility to criticize his actions. That's part of free speech as well. As is being respectful of others religion, which he is not.

    I think this is going to hurt them in the long run. Some people will continue to go to this church, many because they can further justify their hatred via religion, but some will just attempt to look past it and cry free speech if they are criticized. Others will simply stop going to this particular church, even if they feel the same way, because they don't want to appear unsensitive. Were this a Muslim doing so to the Bible, I would feel the same way. Yeah they have the right, but I have the right to disagree.
     
  25. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #25
    I found biblical justification! Dueteronomy chapter 13 describes, not just flushing the koran, but killing anyone who worships another god. Your wife, children, friends, neighbors. I suppose if we're directed to kill unbelievers, merely flushing the koran is almost a favor...
     

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