The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Sayhey, Jul 14, 2004.

  1. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #1
    Shocking? Seymour Hersh, speaking at the ACLU conference says that the government has video tapes of Iraqi boys being sodomized by our troops in Abu Ghraib. They were boys rounded up along with their mothers and tortured in order to get that "vital information" that children have. He also said their mothers sent out notes begging to be killed because of what was done there. Take a listen to his comments starting at about 1 hr and 7 min. into the program and decide if you think his charges are credible. I do and they make me sick for my country.

    ACLU conference

    Look for the link under the July 7th Gala dinner listing. The comment above are at the 1:30 mark in the video.
     
  2. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #2
    Ok, I can say that I will not even listen to the tape. However, it is because I am a father, and I have seen enough blood out of Iraq. I know that bad things happened there in that prision. However, I do know that good is being done. But truthfully if there is evidence, and they can find who did it.

    Let me really clear how I feel about that.

    Shoot them in the head before a firing squad!
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #3
    wow. everyone should watch this. it's more about the democracy crisis this administration represents than the prison scandal, btw.
     
  4. Sayhey thread starter macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #4
    B2TM,

    The video I provide a link to is only Hersh's speech before the ACLU conference. He also talks highly of many military and intelligence people he says resisted the policies that led to the abuses. As disturbing as the charges are, his speech is worth the time.
     
  5. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #5
    First and foremost, let me thankyou for providing the link Sayhey...it was...well, important.

    A few initial points I came away with (I am still processing) that I found striking...despite the fact that hersch is not a particularily elegant speaker.

    1. I found his comment regarding the conversation about torture w/ an Isreali intelligence operative, very relevant. The comment, which basically was candid about the relationship between Arabs and Israelis (ie they hate each other), nevertheless realized that they would eventually need to co-exist as neighbors. It was then further stated that is the Israelis treated their Arab prisoners in the same manner as the US, then hope for reconciliation would be lost, or made much more difficult. While I am sure that there might have been some mistreatment of prisoners by Israeilis at some point, the realization that it is counterproductive really hit home, both because it is true, and because it was coming from an Isreali, who hates his enemy, has experience w/ terrorism and yet is still wise enough to be pragmatic. We should be so lucky.

    2. I also found the discussion of the take-over of our government by a handful of NeoCons disturbing, although not new information. Still, I was both saddened and somewhat hopeful, that there is such a degree of dissent within both the Pentagon, the FBI, CIA, Foreign Service and the Justice Dept. (to name a few). I was saddened because dissent, while normally a part of any decent decision-making process, was completely ignored or equated with treason by the heads of the Administration (ashcroft, rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Rice, Powell, wolfy). This saddens me because obviously this reflects a push for policy completely divorced from reality and adherent only to a fixed ideology, and this is by the most powerful government on the planet. It also saddens me because relatedly, it makes for poor decisions, poor cooperation, and poor efficiency in solving any real problems. It still further saddens me, because career government workers, be it civilian or military, are put in a bind between their careers and their morals, between honor and some semblance of getting anything done. It is a real disservice to these men and women, as they are sullied from above and below.

    I am hopeful, because there are these many honorable and intelligent men working for our country, and perhaps in the future they will be allowed to do their jobs correctly and as they should, and perhaps allow themselves, and our country to regain back some Integrity and Honor, which we have so recently squandered.

    3. As far as the Torture discussion, especially regarding the Children...I have not quite finished processing that...as it is abhorrent to a degree I am having trouble with.

    I will say, that it is obvious that torture is not a pragmatic way of gaining intelligence, and creates an ever-increasing vicious circle that creates victims in both our servicemen, career officers, Iraqi civilians (and Afghanis) and of us, US civilians...if not in the crushing blow to our sense of who we are and what we hold dear, than perhaps in future attacks on US soil which can be obviously be seen as a result of this behavior...Again, I put the responsibility for this squarely on the shoulders of the highest levels of government, yet am deeply saddened that the rest of our military structure was complicit in all of this, yet at least the latter can be somewhat absolved as they are but further victims of a policy isolated from reality and pragmatism and fixated on the attempt at realization of a Utopian ideology at all costs. I further believe that the Administrations insistence, if out of either desparation or justification, for numerical RESULTS w/o regard to the reality and/or complexity of the matter at hand, is the direct impetus behind actions such as what happenned at Abu Ghirab and other prisons around the Globe under US control during the WOT.

    The focus on concrete results, w/o regard to any reality behind them is perhaps also bourne out of the Administrations' reluctant recognition that they must give the US populace some justification for the American lives lost and the taxpayer money spent. There was talk by Hersch of the fabrication of Zallawi (sp?) being responsible for anything he has been attributed to, and that the reality of the situation is he is just a convenient face to present to the media and to the US public, although he is just a composite. So, in effect, not only does this administration force us into complicity by association by dragging America's name through the mud in the minds of those abroad, but it seeks to futher that complicity by outright deception. I find this outrageous, that our own government is willing to screw the American public TWICE by both commiting actions in our name, and by taking the average americans' faith in their country, their government, their media, their system and subverting and manipulating it to service their own narrow ends. I feel even machaivelli would be disgusted (he might also be impressed). God Damn it.

    4. I found Hersch's comment about the upcoming election somewhat cryptic also, as he mentioned it being "Bush vs Bush", which I assume is a referencee to Kerry's move toward to center on many issues coming into the election (to get to the Center from the left, you of course move right). A rather lukewarm endorsement if I ever heard one, and the one thing Hersch said (or implied, to be fair) that I did not agree with, although he did reference the upcoming election as the most important one since 1860, so perhaps he just didn't go into it...

    Still, I feel that Kerry, if only because he would purge the government of the NEoCon posse, and all of the evils they have done to us both Abroad and Domestically...although in some cases, the effects of this will be with us for quite some time. As far as lukewarm endorsements go, I have always wanted Kerry, not because of him, but because of his appointments, or rather that they would replace the current ones. I feel that will make a large difference in the US projecting it's power efficiently and wisely, once people are again allowed to do what they were trained for. Of course, not all problems would be solved...there would still be inter and intra-dept bickering and we would still be in the Iraqi quagmire, but at least there would be a chance for dissenting opinionn, and subsequently, decent and pragmatic policy. As Hersch mentioned, in 1971/72, Kerry stood up and voiced his objections against the Establishment with regards to the Vietnam War, and I feel as President, he would be more likely to do that w/in his power to change a horrible, morally-repugnant system, he certainly couldn't do worse...

    I fear, however, that so much damage is done, and some courses of action are so intractable that Kerry may have to go a considerable distance backwards before forwards, and that will cost him, and the Democrats considerably. Still, the dim prospect of a beginning of a renewal of American Honor gives me hope...and right now, I need a **** load of it.

    Sorry for the rant, I am rather incensed....I might comment more later, after a drink and some contemplation...
     
  6. Sayhey thread starter macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #6
    blackfox,

    great post as usual. Let me just say that Hersh's comment of this election being about Bush vs. Bush, I did not take as a knock on Kerry. Rather it was a way of saying this election is all about Bush. It is a referendum on what he has done, not so much about what Kerry represents. Hersh later makes a kind of back-handed compliment towards Kerry about his testimony in '72 as opposed to his careful approach during this campaign. There is no doubt Hersh would like a bit more of the old Kerry (I would too) but he isn't likening him to Bush.
     
  7. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #7
    Sayhey, thanks...I am still seething with emotion at this point.

    As to your point about the Election/Kerry, I believe you are correct, I just didn't see it that way, although that makes sense. Appreciate the alternate viewpoint.

    I chose not to tackle the issue of Media complicity and spinelessness in my rant, as that may have taken me over the word-limit for posts, and because I feel we (or I) need to focus on the real villians here, not the victims.

    Once again, thanks for the link, although it probably single-handedly has pushed me an inch closer to Alcoholism...
     
  8. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #8
    In an unrelated story, I'm drunk. There used to be a thread for this...
     
  9. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #9
    No time for that! There's work to be done...
     

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