Theocracy

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by leekohler, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #1
    I'm starting this thread not to be offensive, but to make an observation and ask a question.

    After having many discussions on the subject, it's becoming very clear to me that some religious people, and many Republicans simply do not want to live in a pluralistic society. Everyone should be the same and have the same thoughts, ideas, live by the same rules, etc. Dissent, it seems, is wrong, bad and should be discouraged. I would seriously like someone to explain to me why everyone should not have an equal voice- why everyone should live according to certain people's narrow views of Christianity, George Bush's view on the war, etc.

    I, for one, will never shut up. This country was started by people who wished to escape religious persecution. They put certain safeguards into the constitution to keep this from happening again. Now it seems, some people want that to disappear. Why? Is this the land of the free or not?
     
  2. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #2
    What? Nobody? We get to the heart of it and no one has anything to say?
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #3
    hey, friday night, some of us were out.

    generalizations are difficult. is there a correlation between christianity and intolerance? being a republican and intolerance? or is it that those who self-identify that way and advertise are the same kind of people who reveal themselves as intolerant?
     
  4. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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  5. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #5
    Depends on what your definition of free is.

    And apparently 60% of the country agrees with you. But yeah, some religious people believe that theirs is the truth and everyone else is wrong/or and evil. Freedom is nothing but a buzz word. They don't care if you are a different religion or choose not to believe in God at all. Ironically, while they seem to hate the terrorists for being fundamentalists, they have a lot more in common than they even realize. But we realize it, and although there are some who were scared into believing the lies of the current administration, most of the country, even those who are not that well informed, are beginning to turn against them for letting us down as much as they have. And while there are good people out there who are religious and/or conservative, the fundies are the ones who are out there scaring the moderates off. Some people will believe anything the adminstration sells them, just as there are still some Dems who would stand behind Hitler were he a liberal, but most will see how bad things are getting, and it will scare them right back into being pissed.

    So to answer your question, they saw an opening, they took it, then they took it too far. It's going to get worse before it gets better, but hey, at least more people realize it now. :D
     
  6. bursty macrumors 6502a

    bursty

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  7. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #7
    then why not ask, "why are some people intolerant?"
     
  8. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #8
    To be fair, there are also plenty of extreme "left-wing" type who can't abide dissent either, whether in theory or in practice. Lots of people just aren't interested in other points of view or compromise because they believe in all-or-nothing type doctrines that do not allow them to seek out compromise.
     
  9. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #9
    i feel mostly in line with most liberals i meet in the bay area...i am a democrat and have voted that way every time on dozens of democratic candidates (except for reagan in '84, and for a liberal gop assemblyman once), i tend towards christian churches that are liberal in their philosophy and i am tolerant of other religious and spiritual beliefs, i am educated from a public college and secondary school system that believes in evolution as i also do, i believe in the scientific method as i was taught in junior high/high school/college/graduate school from quite a few teachers who were proud athiests who i totally respected for their scientific minds, i studied labor law from the perspective of the unions and the corporations and i side with the unions, i am staunchly pro gay marriage, i served on the board of an aids project and served as its chairman, and i am extremely anti-death penalty, and for the most part, i disagree with a lot (practically all) of george w bush/governor arnold's ideas and proposals, and lastly, i believe in the separation of church and state

    but being christian i believe does not automatically make me a republican and christianity in america really has a democratic majority, but many liberal and moderate christians and jews do not vote so the perception is that christians are mostly george bush supporters from the red states

    democratic senator barack obama said it best when he said, "we worship an awesome god" and one day the gop will get a swift kick in the arse :)...hopefully in 2006 and 2008

    bush cannot continue to wage an illeagal war based on false information bankrupting our nation, ignore the huge task that is the rebuilding of new orleans, and give much of our monies to the rich in tax breaks and expect religious people in the united states to simply go along with him and his party
     
  10. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #10
    I thought that was the general consensus about us lefties in the political forum! Been accused of it enough times... :p

    But yes, you are correct. And going to Santa Cruz regularly puts me in touch with many of them who still consider me a right-wing nazi because I support smart growth and like to shoot guns and eat meat and drive a truck. Heh... arguing with them is fun.
     
  11. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #11
    heck, i get along well with most in santa cruz and many are to the left of me, even though many outside of santa cruz would call me a liberal democrat, but the lefties on this forum make santa cruz look like (conservative california) orange county, imho ;)
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #12
    :p Indeed.
     
  13. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #13
    Inflexible left-wingers make me almost as sick as inflexible right-wingers. Although I think liberals tend to be correct more often than not, anyone can be mistaken in their beliefs. I say this as someone who was alive during the late 1960s, when the drug culture and free love were being promoted as ideal lifestyles.
     
  14. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #14
    jef, you've got to get out more in Santa Cruz. Just hang out more by the campus and I'm sure you'll find folks that will make both mac and I blush. ;)
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    Actually the sad thing is that Santa Cruz is not what it used to be. The last few years it's become really pronounced to me -- probably from having been away for so long now, but the character of the town is very different from what it was pre-1989. Not all the changes are bad, but the influx of the uber-wealthy from outside the area has been significant. Some family friends who travel in wealthier circles than I now know a good half-dozen personal friends with vacation houses in Santa Cruz county. Lots of locals have left because they can't compete with the Big Money coming over the hill.

    Heck, my sis just paid about $800K for a two-bedroom 'fixer-upper' on the Westside. I could never afford to move back...
     
  16. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #16
    It's the same all over the SF Bay Area. I've seen it on my infrequent trips down to Santa Cruz as well, but I still get the feeling every time I go there I've travelled back in time to the late sixties or early seventies. I'm not complaining mind you, just overwhelmed by nostalgia. There are a few isolated places in SF (on Haight street mostly) that I get the same feeling, but they are getting very rare. I just want to breakout the old tie-dyed shirts and enjoy illegal substances. The last time I made it there was to take my sixteen-year-old son to a George Carlin performance, so every refugee from the sixties (myself included) turned out.

    The politics of Santa Cruz, like most College towns, are skewed to the left, and, while I love debates about the "personal as the political" as much as anyone, University politics are a world unto themselves. I sometimes find myself shaking my head and thinking "kids these days...."
     
  17. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #17
    i guess bush and company have made me so disgusted that i have veered more to the left these days approaching the santa cruz point of view...i was going to spend the next five years, mostly distance learning, with university of california adult extension education through uc santa cruz, so i wouldn't really have been able to get the flavor of the left wing attitudes there on a day to day basis

    so if a person is even very right winged, they can still "attend" the liberal university of california system extension for classes and degrees online and not even be influenced by its liberal politics

    but of course, you can be very liberal and get an online education at a conservative, usually private college, and not pick up a political bias either

    but physically seeing pacific st (or ave?) in santa cruz or telegraph near uc berkeley will blast a person with "left wing" :)

    monterey and palo alto, ca (under my avatar) are actually very liberal but you wouldn't know it from looking at the people, houses, and businesses...yeah, it's true stanford, in palo alto, has the famously conservative hoover institute (condi rice) but in general, the rest of the school, especially the law school, has a liberal point of view

    monterey is home to 23 golf courses in the general area but has some big money donators to the democratic party...and one democratic billionaire there has a private office with a framed original letter...nixon's letter of resignation
     
  18. leekohler thread starter macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #18
  19. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #19
    Hey, it's not their fault the party has been taken over by the far right. Who, ironically, are pretty much the exact opposite of what their party stands for. As Bill Maher says, I'd be a Republican if only they would.
     
  20. vniow macrumors G4

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    I accidentally my whole location.
    #20
    Hell, Santa Cruz has changed a lot in the 5 years I lived there starting in late 2000. Part of the problem I think is that its so isolated , there's only about 3 ways in or ouf of the town (1, 17 and 9 I think) but it takes such a long time on either one that most people don't even bother, so most people I think get settled into their own idealistic way of the world and feel threatened when someone who doesn't share their values intrused on "their" space. That's part of the reason why I didn't want to live there anymore 'cause I was like, you all are so full of yourselves. I think its great when you have a liberal savehaven like that, but its all talk, you ain't getting much done.

    Right now I'm probably going to move back to SF after about 6 months here in Marin, I just need to be around people who have a wider range of values.

    *sigh*

    -Ani
     
  21. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #21
    :D Another local checks in. Better up your income if you're moving back into SF Ani! Not that Marin is much cheaper of course...

    Sometimes I really miss the Bay Area.
     

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