Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by pantagruel, Mar 28, 2003.

  1. pantagruel macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2002
    Location:
    here and there
    #1
    This thread is based off the current Religious thread, though that thread has majorly veered of its intended path and has no real focus, this thread is for the discussion of evolution and what is known as creationism which centers around Genesis.
    I'll start off with a simple question against evolution. If man came from monkeys then why are there still monkeys in the world?

    Lets keep this thread as civilised as can be with no one liners for or against religion.
     
  2. MacFan25 macrumors 68000

    MacFan25

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Location:
    USA
    #2
    Re: Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

    I have wondered that same thing, also. It would seem that there wouldn't be monkeys anymore if all humans all came from them.

    That's one of the reasons that I don't really believe in that monkey business. :p ;)
     
  3. medea macrumors 68030

    medea

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Location:
    Madison, Wi
    #3
    Re: Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

    Good idea, lets hope this thread stays focused.

    On your question though, you are a bit mistaken, you see evolution does not teach that humans descended from monkeys only that we both have a common ancestor. And furthermore new species evolve by splintering off from already established ones, when populations of organisms become isolated from the main branch of their family and acquire sufficient differences to remain forever distinct. The parent species may survive indefinitely thereafter, or it may become extinct. So even if man branched off from monkeys, the original form of monkey might or could still exist.
     
  4. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Location:
    VA
    #4
    Re: Re: Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

    Exactly right - and if you look at the genetic evidence, we share 98.5% of the genes with monkeys and a little less with gorillas and orangutangs. Our common ancestor broke away from the gorillas ancestor farther back in time.

    The myth of the missing link is just that, a myth. Today there is a fairly well accepted archeological record of the development of the species.

    So it took God several billion years to get to us, that's fine. What's a billion years to God. He got to play with the dinosaurs first and then made things fall into place for us to come on the scene.

    If you think about the extinction of the dinosaurs, well, its not hard to imagine that as an act of God.

    D
     
  5. dabirdwell macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2002
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    #5
    Mass extinctions are the rule on earth, not the exception, and we are due for another anytime now...
     
  6. jayscheuerle macrumors 68020

    jayscheuerle

    #6
    Keep in mind too kids, that just because the "Theory of Evolution" has the word "theory" in it, doesn't mean it isn't an accepted scientific fact. The word "theory" in this case (and many others) refers to its initial postulation. What isn't understood is its mechanism, whether it be gradual or in spurts.

    Creationism on the other hand, is simply part of a system of beliefs and has no (and needs no) facts to back it up other than faith.

    - j
     
  7. beez7777 macrumors 6502a

    beez7777

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2002
    Location:
    Notre Dame
    #7
    man did not evolve from apes, we evolved with apes. and both theory of evolution and creation can be accepted at the same time- man may have evolved from other species as long as it was part of god's plan.
     
  8. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Location:
    VA
    #8
    But why not accept that creationism is evolution. Why would God put the fossils in the Earth only to confuse the issue. I don't think you need to rely on faith here, just accept a different definition for creationism.

    Again, it gets back to taking the Bible as fact, which I can't in some parts.

    D
     
  9. pantagruel thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2002
    Location:
    here and there
    #9
    Re: Re: Re: Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

    Hmm looks like was mislead about that, makes more sense now in a way, but if evolution happens gradually then there shouldnt be any gaps inbetween species, and classifiying them would be near impossible right?
     
  10. JesseJames macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2003
    Location:
    How'd I get here? How can I leave?
    #10
    At the risk of being seen as a fool. I believe Darwinism has some serious merits worth mulling about.
    You know what I think? I think the very fact that we can use keyboards and such gave us THE edge. Our desire to be more dexterous with our hands increased our brain capacity. From the use of primitive tools to becoming a concert violinist, that's one way of looking at it.
     
  11. Groovsonic macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Location:
    Near Chicago, Illinois
    #11
    I am copying this from my two most recent posts on the other thread.

    This has been a very interesting thread to read. I am a born-again Christian.
    Here is the thing. It is a difficuly concept for me to hear someone believe there is no God. I do not mean any offense here, I just can't wrap my mind around it. I am not talking about a specefic god/God, I am talking about not believeing there is any god/God at all. Think about how life formed, how amazing we are as human beings. Think about how the earth revolves around the sun. Think about the birds that know to fly south, and can find their spot. Think about the amazing majesty of the mountians. Think about the complexity and simplicity of it all. I simply cannot believe that their was not an incredible Creator behind it all.
    Where did the original life come from if not from God? Did a blob of chemicals just suddenly become life? Where did those chemicals come from? You can just keep going back from there.
    I hear about the "big-bang" theory. Where did the bang come from? There is no effect without cause. If there was nothing before the bang, what caused the bang?
    I really don't care if 6 days was a literal 6 days or if it was figurative. I believe that it is literally 6 days because I choose to believe that Bible over very limited "science". Don't forget, it is the THEORY of evoloution and the big bang THEORY. They cannot prove it as a fact becaue it cannot be proven. You can find "evidence" to back it up, but you can find "evidence" to "prove" alot of things. OJ simpson had "evidence" that he didn't kill anyone. It takes just as much faith to believe evoloution as it does to believe in a Creator, because neither can be "proven" right now.

    There is such a thing as a reasoned faith.
    The truth is you will never be able to "prove" either one whlie we are alive, because you cannot observe it. I read somewhere that you can have a thousand sucessful tests to support a theory, but it only takes one unsucessful test to disprove it. The truth is that I could sit here all day and spout evidence that supports my way of thinking, but if you didn't want to believe it, you wouldn't. You could explain it all away.
    The problem I have with the theory of evolution is that it is taught as fact. It is a theory. People think you are a backwards hick or religious fanatic if you say you don't believe in evolution. There was once a theory that the earth was flat. It took people questioning that theory to find out it wasn't true. Be open minded. Like I said, I don't really care what method God used to get us here, but I wouldn't shut my mind to thinking it happened just like it says in the Bible.

    Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and the substance of things not yet seen. (I am pretty sure that is a verse in the Bible. I just don't remember which one)
     
  12. medea macrumors 68030

    medea

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Location:
    Madison, Wi
    #12
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

    No evolution is not always gradual and is often sporadic._Also evolutionists never said there should not be gaps, gaps dont prove creation any more than a blank spot in human history proves all civilizations were spontaneously created.
     
  13. Stelliform macrumors 68000

    Stelliform

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2002
    #13
    I believe in evolution, simply because if God is all of those omni's, why would he build a universe that requires so much of his intervention? Isn't is much more elegant to put a tiny dot of matter, and have it explode and expand into the universe. Now, I think he exists, and he cares about us. And he does intercede with humanity when he needs to.

    If you believe that God created us in his image, why is it so hard to believe that we can understand the process of how we came to be? Obviously to be a image of God means that you would have some degree of his intelligence....

    On a final note, this is what I was taught in Catholic school. And as I was told, it is the official teaching by the Catholic church. Humanity evolved into an animal that looks somewhat like a modern human. Then God bestows self awareness on two of these pre-humans. (Adam and Eve) And that is how Genesis is explained.

    But I am repeating this without having checked it myself. This is what I was told by my Senior Religion teacher. (Who did hold a Dr. in Theology)
     
  14. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    #14
    has anyone here read the book "The Source"? you might be very interested in it.
     
  15. Sedulous macrumors 68000

    Sedulous

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    #15
    Evolution has its flaws. However, much like any other piece of science, it is a work in progress.

    The bible demands more "faith" than science. In a few cases that I am aware of (I don't study the bible) the actual references the bible makes to evolution are contradictory to what we know. For example, it talks about an impassible barrier making it impossible for one kind to evolve into another. Yet, in any lab across the world, on a daily basis, scientists move genetic elements through various species as a trivial step in an experiment.

    The bible is fraught with elements that at least seem to conflict with fact.

    The whole story about Noah is not credible. How was it possible for this one man (or even with a team of thousands) manage to collect two of every animal on Earth and fit it on a hand made boat? How could he even have enough time to feed them all and build this boat and manage to get over to Australia, Antarctica, the Americas, Africa, all of Asia, Europe, and the Middle East to collect these animals (especially during the flood when there was just eight people on the boat)? I can't imagine a boat large enough to hold all these animals along with all the various food stuffs for at least 40 days. The Arc would have had to be the size of a supertanker. Following the flood, how did Noah again manage to redistribute all of these animals back to their appropriate biosphere (i.e. Brazilian rainforest animals back into the Brazilian rainforest, polar bears back to the Antarctic, etc). Furthermore, the bible doesn't mention Noah collecting plants. How did plants survive the deluge?

    "... until even the tall mountains are covered by 22 ft of water" means that the Earth was covered by an additional 30,000 ft of water. Where did that water go? There isn't that much water contained in the present earth+sea+atmosphere. Likewise, under the pressure of 30,000 feet of water nearly everything would be dead due to pressure/cold/darkness (again, where did all the plants come from?). Where did all the corpses go? Shouldn't there be fossilized remains from what was nearly the entire human/animal/plant population of the planet?
     
  16. lmalave macrumors 68000

    lmalave

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Location:
    Chinatown NYC
    #16
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

    Evolution does not happen gradually, but rather in fits and starts. Evolution is a reaction to the environment which is of course also always changing. Evolution does not say that species "progress", only that a species will have a greater probabiliy of propagating itself if it is better adapted to its specific environment.

    There are a lot of misconceptions about evolution. Darwin's theory was much more nuanced then the common misperception of it that people have today. For a really good read I recommend the essays of Stephen Jay Gould. They are super, super well written and actually quite entertaining.

    The way I see evolution is this: evolution is a probabilistic system. Why did life arise? In the beginning everything was chaos, a big chemical vat. Then all of a sudden molecules started to replicate themselves (if you've taken bio then you know how DNA and RNA work, these primordial molecules would have been the precursors).

    Naturally, a molecule that replicated itself was more likely to persist, so it's basically like a chain reaction: all of a sudden that molecule was everywhere (provided the conditions were such that that molecule was stable). But then guess what, another molecule comes along that is even better at replicating itself, at least in a particular environment, so then it becomes dominant in that environment. And notice that I didn't say "more complex" or "more sophisticated", merely better at replicating itself. All evolution says is that whatever molecule, organism , or what have you that is better at reproducing itself in a particular environment will be dominant. In fact, bacteria are still the dominant species on Earth today, and they'll be here long after we're gone, and yet we can coexist with them because through hundreds of millions of years of evolution us and our ancestors have found different ways to propagate.

    That's basically how I see evolution: practically a mathematical inevitability once you have self-replicating molecules in a stable environment. Which is also why I'm convinced that the universe is teeming with extraterrestrial life. But that's another topic entirely ;)
     
  17. howard macrumors 68020

    howard

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    #17
    just because we don't know something doesn't mean that god did it. we might not be able to explain some things, like evolution or the big bang but thats not necessarily because god made it happen, maybe we just don't know, either yet or ever.
     
  18. SDimaging macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Location:
    Chicago burbs
    #18
    Re: Theory of Evolution Vs. Genesis Thread

    We didn't come from monkeys, we are monkeys. There are a whole bunch of different kind of apes or whatever the proper name is. We are just one of many different spieces of ape.

    The major difference is we can realize it.
     
  19. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    #19
    There isn't anything in the "Theory of Evolution" that contradicts Creation. To God a day is a 1000 years and a 1000 years is a day.
     
  20. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Location:
    Santa Cruz Ca
    #20
    Clarification:

    Homo Sapiens is NOT descended nor directly related to Monkeys. We are cousins to Apes (as Apes are closer Genetically). We are technically both Apes and Homonids meaning that we share the most traits with Apes but are differentiated by stance, diet and the peculiarity of being the only Ape that Swims.

    Monkeys are diferentiated from Apes by Size, having Tails, Ratio of Animal Protien in the diet, mid and forebrain development and the fact that no other Ape but Man can swim.

    All 3 are descended of a common ancestor, Monkeys diferentiating from what would become both Apes and Homonids, then the Apes parted from what would become the Line of Homonids.

    It is interesting to note that there are roughly as many Homonids leading to
    "modern Man" as Genesis counts Individuals between Adam and Seth. There is also evidence to show that the last 2 Homonids to evolve before the current (us) variant waged war and interbred.... that strife led to the current line.
     
  21. scem0 macrumors 604

    scem0

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Location:
    back in NYC!
    #21
    Code:
    
    if(creation == no evidence && evolution == much evidence)
    {
    evolution = better;
    }
    
    
    I don't know what prompted me to write like that, but basically
    I think, from a scientific standpoint, in evolution. I don't believe
    in creation at all, but I could understand a christian believing
    in it (and evolution).
     
  22. iJon macrumors 604

    iJon

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    #22
    well for one all those continents you listed were probably not there back then. they were probably bigger single islands and they broke off as the years went on. plus chances are there werent as many animals then as there are now. plus i believe there been some proof of noah's arc being found in turkey on a mountain somewhere. plus many scientists have done research and seem a world flood would have made sense from studying certain things. although this is just only tidbits i have learned over the years and i have no hard evidence to prove it. maybe someone else has some links. but i agree with you on one thing, it does seem impossible, just too hard for our little minds to think of this as possible. but i think about god making everything we have seen so far and nothing seems to big in my mind.

    iJon
     
  23. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    #23
    I pray for you scem0, it's very possible that in you lifetime you will change your views. Creation is consistant with evolution. Everyday science is finding more evidence of the facts in the Bible!
     
  24. scem0 macrumors 604

    scem0

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Location:
    back in NYC!
    #24
    I didn't realize there was much evidence supporting creation.
    Relative to the evidence supporting evolution, that is.
     
  25. iJon macrumors 604

    iJon

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    #25
    i think you should go read a bible, there is soem awesome stuff in there. even if you dont want anything to do with god read it anyways, just pick up and read some chapters. some awesome stories.

    iJon
     

Share This Page