Torture at Abu Ghraib Military Prison

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by rabatjoie, May 2, 2004.

  1. rabatjoie macrumors member

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    #1
    In-depth article in the New Yorker about the cases of torture at the Abu Ghraib military prison west of Bagdad, including Information from a report written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba which was not meant for public release.

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
     
  2. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

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    #2
    This is pure and simple barbaric, they are no better than Saddam and his henchmen. :( President Bush deserves credit for coming out quickly and forcibly against such acts. There have always been soldiers in combat that are cruel. I hope that they receive harsh punishment. They are not helping our war against terrorism. This is a gift to the enemies of our way of life.
     
  3. MongoTheGeek macrumors 68040

    MongoTheGeek

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    #3
    Stopping stuff like that is one of the reason we went there. It good that Bush came out and condemned it. Its really good he kicked out the general in charge. It would be better if it never happened.
     
  4. evil macrumors 6502

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    #4
    oh come on. like he couldnt come out against the cruelty right away.
    it is obvious that the media would/did get a hold of the story and therefore if the pres. didnt come out against it he would look like a fool.
    he was just doing his job, nothing special.
     
  5. crenz macrumors 6502a

    crenz

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    #5
    This is going to have huge repercussions in the Arabic world. Now Iraqis will perceive foreign forces even more as "occupants" rather than "liberators". :(
     
  6. poopyhead macrumors 6502a

    poopyhead

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    #6
    I find this to be throughly disgusting
    I only hope that we leave these american service people to be judged by and properly punished by the new Iraqi courts when they are formed
    we as the perpetrators should not be the ones to punish these individuals
    I also hope that all of those abused get the care and financial reparations they most definitely deserve
    If this had happened within american borders to american citizens they would have been and should have been locked up without a possibility of parole
    their actions show at the very least psychotic, sociopathic personalities that I feel pose a danger to humanity at large
     
  7. IrishGold macrumors member

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    #7

    Unless they had it coming(committed some terrible crime to be in there in the first place.)
     
  8. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #8
    And they are perfectly justified in such a perception. Don't kid yourself into thinking that this will just have huge repercussions in the Arabic world. Countless youngsters are going to sign up for terrorist groups around the Arab world out of disgust and hatred for this sort of American atrocity. After all, this is our own brand of terrorism, isn't it?

    I'm speechless. I just don't know what to write. I'm so angry that this happens under the auspices of representatives of the US government and its citizenry.
     
  9. MongoTheGeek macrumors 68040

    MongoTheGeek

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    #9
    No one has things like that coming.
     
  10. IrishGold macrumors member

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    #10

    Right, you get shot at and try to keep that same mentality.

    edit:Just an F.Y.I. I know it sounds like it, but I'm not defending their actions.
     
  11. MongoTheGeek macrumors 68040

    MongoTheGeek

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    #11
    These are soldiers. They should be covered under the UCMJ. One thing that the US must do is clean up its own messes.
     
  12. MongoTheGeek macrumors 68040

    MongoTheGeek

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    #12
    I understand there is a lot of stress involved in being shot at, having friends killed and then having to watch over the people who did it. I am not sure I would be able to resist the temptations presented.

    The problem is that molesting prisoners is like molesting children. Taking advantage of someone who is completely in your power. Some of the things I heard about were "yeah so" (locking the prisoners in solitary) others were atrocious.
     
  13. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #13
    It sounds like these guys were taking their frustration out on a particularly defenseless lot. That's quite a bit different from getting shot at by a group at whom you're shooting.

    The suicide bombings are a different story and probably have an even worse psychological effect on our men and women in Iraq. However, I've been wondering this for a while...

    Suicide bombings against civilians are definitely terrible atrocities. However, when the target of a suicide bombing is military, is it really terrorism (by the conventional definition) or is it a military action? If it is legitimate for the United States to invade Iraq, anticipating resistance, could it be possible that it is legitimate for anti-American Iraqi forces to retaliate in what they perceive as defense against their homeland. If that means sacrificing their lives to precipitate casualties against their enemies, isn't that what all war is about?

    I've been wrestling with this question. We go to Iraq, we initiate aggression, and we expect no one to fire back? I think it's ludicrous not to expect resistance to invasion. I think it's somehow morally relativist (to borrow a term from my conservative friends) to define one type of aggression as legitimate and part of the Hell that is war and to define another as terrorism.

    I hae always seen terrorism as violent acts against largely civilian targets with the purpose of causing fear and misery amongst civilian populations. This is in general, of course. The bombing of the USS Cole seems to fit into a consistent (though more loose) definition of terrorism in that it was non-retaliatory. On the other hand, even in this case, is it not a fact that individuals who considered themselves members of a military (or paramilitary) unit whose adversary was the United States sought to engage in a battle of sorts against an American military presence? How is that different from what America and other recognized nations have engaged in from time to time?

    Things like embassy bombings, hijackings, and destruction of civilian targets--That's real terrorism. When one signs up to defend one's country, though, aren't there inherent risks explicit within the agreement? The military exists as a buffer between enemies and civilians and if there weren't those who would wish to commit acts of aggression against our military, then why would we even have a military? This is especially true when we strike first.

    It's almost as if we are tainting the severity and gravity of terrorist acts by grouping military altercations in with them.

    Now in no way does this mean that I support car bombings of American troops. I'm against this in much the same way I'm against an American soldier being shot by an enemy. But I also see that such violence is no worse than the shot that an American troop fires (or has to fire) against an Iraqi. That Iraqi also has a family, also has children, and is also under the pressure that gunshots from the enemy tend to cause...What's more, that Iraqi knows he is engaged in a battle that he cannot win. I don't devalue American lives. It's just that I value the Iraqi lives just as much.

    Don't flame me. I already feel guilty as if this sort of opinion makes me callous...This debate in my mind is rather distressing. This combined with the fact that after so many images of violence, so many death tolls, I feel desensitized to the plight of our troops and those of others, makes me feel like I'm not such a good person. But I'm trying to come to terms with the facts that I don't understand what it's like and I can't. However, I still see that there's this labeling issue going on with different types of violence and it looks more like government spin than anything else.

    If someone has a reasoned opinion/argument that would counter those I have presented, please post it. If someone agrees, post that, too.
     
  14. Awimoway macrumors 65816

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    #14
    When I saw the first headline, I hoped that this would be a wake-up call to America that we aren't the pure, holier-than-thou crusaders we'd like to think we are. I love the principles my country stands for, but war is hell, and no one who starts a war will ever be on a pure and noble crusade to save another country. Of course Bush is going to disavow himself of this, but he doesn't seem to be doing much to asses how widespread the problem is. He's acting characteristically disinterested and dismissive as if he hopes this story just goes away, and that right quick. That's not accountable, responsible conduct, in my judgment.

    When you put anyone in a position of absolute power over anyone else, bad things are likely to happen. It would be terribly naive to think that this one prison is an isolated incident, and now reports are indeed coming out that this has been common in British-run prisons and other American-run prisons. We hate the Arabs and, when given the opportunity of absolute power over another human being that we hate, many of us will take our aggressions out in the most extreme ways. Again, I love the principles my country stands for, but Americans themselves are humans like everyone else, and I don't at all like the practices these humans are currently exhibiting to the world. They're giving America a very bad name, but we deserve it, don't we?

    And we should have seen it coming, 'cause war is still hell.
     
  15. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    #15
    Wrong forum?

    Umm, why isn't this in the "Politics & War Discussion" forum?
     
  16. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #16
    I'm sure it will be soon.
     
  17. Awimoway macrumors 65816

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    #17
    It's hard to talk about any major news story with political implications without your comments veering toward politics. Believe it or not, I tried to restrain myself with my above post, but it's just impossible for me to give any analysis at all to a story like this without being, to some degree, political. I wish the mods would show a little latitude in the Current Events forum, but they prefer not to. Which is their prerogative.

    But it makes it almost pointless to post any news in the Current Events forum that has any political implication at all. I guess we can only talk about things like robotic traffic barrels and why the Yankees suck.
     
  18. rabatjoie thread starter macrumors member

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    #18
    sorry, that was my fault! i was looking all over for the "political forums" that were mentioned in some threads, and i concluded that the "current events" forum was the forum that was referred to...
     
  19. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    #19
    Just to be clear, I wasn't singling out your comment(s). In my opinion the discussion had already started heading down the "politics and war discussion" path well before you posted. ;)
     
  20. kuyu macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

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    #20
    This is dispicable, but I don't think that's it's reason to condemn the entire military. Those involved should be court marshalled, and their CO's should also be repremanded.

    The wierd thing is, these pictures are all over tv and the web, but the pictures of our troops being dragged naked through Fallugah never hit the air waves. Supposedly (I haven't seen it) there's a picture of a kid eating a dismembered arm of a US soldier during the Fallugah thing.

    Makes you wonder why these picturese are OK to show, but those weren't. I know that we don't want someone's mom seeing her dead son being eaten on tv, but we don't want someone's mom seeing her alive son molesting prisoners on live tv either. But, for some reason the latter was deemed appropriate.

    It's not what the media shows that makes it biased, but rather what it doesn't show that propagates a biased agenda (for the left OR the right).
     
  21. Awimoway macrumors 65816

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    #21
    Oh, don't worry. No offense taken. I'm not even complaining about the policy. I just wish that whatever the policy happens to be was made more clear. I know I'm confused.
     
  22. rabatjoie thread starter macrumors member

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    #22
    I think you're right when you're saying that one should not condemn the entire military. But what shocked me most in that article is the fact that some of the witness's statements suggest that there might be a system behind this treatment of prisoners - namely that the soldiers were instructed to “set favorable conditions for subsequent interviews”(what a terrible euphemism, btw) by Military Intelligence officers and interrogators from private security firms(!).
     
  23. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #23
    it's always a judgement call for how political something is, or may become. but anything which is deemed political should be sourced in the Political/War discussions forum.

    (i think anything having to do w/ iraq qualifies)

    but you're right, just about everything ultimately has to do w/ politics. nearly every question that asks why something is will lead to some political decision or viewpoint.
     
  24. SlyHunter macrumors newbie

    SlyHunter

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    #24
    I don't remember which thread it was that was posted "oh no British soldiers have done it too" within it showing articles where British soldiers have tortured Iraqi prisoners. Well I just ran into this article.

     
  25. professor macrumors newbie

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    #25
    Bush against it?

    I wonder why some visitors of this forum praise Bush's speaking against the torture events as being something positive and laudable. I think it is the tone set by the U.S. government itself that produces such behavior. When such a clear distinction is drawn between the righteous and the rest of the world (consisting mostly of terrorists), behavior as that presented by those misguided and most likely undereducated and underinformed soldiers is almost a logical consequence. They may have been under the impression that it was totally legitimate to treat Iraqi prisoners like animals.
    Is it admissible or not, to draw a parallel between those soldiers torturing Iraqis and some of the guards at a Nazi prison camp?
     

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