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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by pseudobrit, Jul 14, 2004.
Doing whatever it takes to stop terrorists...
God, it's getting so difficult to be shocked....
what makes you think that?
i'm sorry you feel that way, though i'm fairly certain you wouldn't want to be treated that way.
under the geneva convention, this is clearly torture. perhaps you think the GC sets the torture bar too low.
And studies have shown that torture isnt very effective in regards to getting information out of someone.
There's just no excuse...
The only reason to torture someone is if both:
a) you know they don't have any valuable information (torture is counterproductive to the interrogation process)
b) you're a sick ****ing sociopathic animal and you get off on it.
I'm glad to see this is the image we're projecting around the world.
What prisoners and where? I know the English were downright awful with the IRA men they've taken in the past, but AFAIK, that's no longer an issue.
Being locked in a freezer for 14 hours is insigificant? Being kept awake for weeks? Being chained to the floor in an unnatural position that causes pain and swelling? Yeah, sounds just like those frat pranksters Rush talks about to me...
What's to gain? A book deal? This guy just wants to tell his story.
There is no reason not to believe him yet, and since this is not the first story of its type to come out of a US "non-POW" POW camp, I've every reason to think it's accurate.
Curious, do you have any good links? I'm interested to read up on it.
It was excerpted in Harper's in '97. A link here
Why are you not surprised? I am truly curious.
Ok, what's your definition of torture.
Why do you not believe him? We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that dozens of the prisoners in Guantanamo were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yet, they were held for more than two years. So, according to your statement all of those held at Guantanamo are liars whether or not they are guilty of terrorism. Either you need to expand on your statement or retract it or fess up to your hypocrisy.
The real problem is that no-one (you, me, anyone else) knows why they are being held and why they were detained in the first place. They have been denied the most basic elements of human rights or recourse to any form of legal representation.
That being so, you can be no surer that they are righfully being detained than others are that they are not.
Okay, have you ever been locked in a freezer for 14 hours?
This isn't the first accusation. That's why it's credible.
Why wasn't he charged with a crime? It sounds to me like he was guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was picked up by Pakistani villagers and sold to the Pakistani police. Doesn't something about that sound odd to you?
A new tool to the American haters that we've supplied them with. The Geneva Convention disagrees with your standards for torture. What are yours? Floggings? The rack?
Part of training for various government agencies is learning how to be tortured. You go into it with the best intentions of not breaking, but, everyone will break eventually.
So, if we captured Bin Laden, how would you feel about him being tortued for information that would stop attacks?
You wouldn't get any. Pointless.
Anyway, it's not about "breaking" people, it's about getting information. Torture is terrorism.
Oh, but you will. Look, we have gotten a ton of info from Kalied Shiek Mohamad. A ton. He designed 9/11 with others, so the question still stands, even if torture is = to terrorism, if we got Bin Laden, and used torture to get info, would it be justified?
Does the ends justify the means?
hm i had lessons/courses about handling POWs,illegal imigrant etc. during my conscription service... which lead to my assumption that _if_ turture does happen, it is intentional.period.
one of my school comrades had a problem during his service because he didn't behave correctly with an imigrant (he used an discriminating word) and had to pay 1500 euro additional to the well known 'equipment cleaning' + weekend duty punishment..who fined him ? the imigrant...no the poor guy didn't even understand the word... the army intern justice got him into trouble...
to flush the own democratic values based on human rights (and binding UN treaties) down the toilet, because of something like terrorism, is more dangerous than terrorism itself... what's next ?'a strong,uniting leader "doing what's need to be done" ' ?
Stelliform: some food of thought..i rephrased one of your sentence
"Are we supposed to believe this guy simply because he _is_ American?"
any discussion about "right or wrong" is misplaced when talking about torture...it should be a discussion about consequences...after all even the most dangerous terrorist is still a human ...
Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.
That's a hypothetical question with an outcome that is not likely. If I knew torturing bin Laden would stop another 9/11, then yes, I'd say go ahead.
But we know that torture would not acheive this purpose because it is counterproductive to the interrogation process.
There is a practical reason to oppose torture that overshadows any moral debate. Somehow this crap gets turned into an anti-bleeding-heart tirade, when it's really just an anti-reality tirade.
You are right. I just wanted some besides me to agree that if you knew it stop another 9/11 then go for it. Thanks Sec of State
Forgive me for butting in, but he qualified his agreement out of existence. Torture seems to be more for the benefit and amusement of the torturer than for extracting useful information. I maintain that if your civilization depends on torture to survive, you've already lost.
That's like arguing for the death penalty in cases where the guilt is assured. It's a situation that will never happen. It's akin to solving physics problems 'in the absence of air resistance' as I did in school so often. It's tantalizingly close to a real situation, but oh so different.
Look, if you have enough info to know that torturing bin Laden would stop another 9/11 then you already have planty of info to work with. Besides, he might lie to get you to stop tortuing him.