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albusseverus

macrumors 6502a
Nov 28, 2007
744
154
Apple is awesome at making unknown resolutions!

1920 x 1080 would be a start, but hardly put them in front.
Apple wastes so much effort justifying avoiding standards.
1080p native just seems more sensible.

Anyone know enough about this to weigh in on non-square pixels?
I like having a 1920x1080 iMac. I don't like having non-square pixels, though. Rotate something and it changes size. Just nuts.
 

Casstiel

macrumors member
May 14, 2014
69
11
What are the chances that Apple will do a "leapfrog" (like with the original iPhone and the A7 64-bit processor) and double the iPhone 5/5s/5c's resolution of 640×1136 to 1280x2272 in an effort to "future proof"? Do such displays even exist at the size of 4.7 inches? How will Apple deal with two 4.7 and 5.5 inch phones? Two iPhone sizes seems "messy" for Apple.
 
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springsup

macrumors 65816
Feb 14, 2013
1,222
1,209
I disagree - 3x scaling would indeed be very awkward.

Lots of iOS graphics aren't bitmaps - they are drawn with CoreGraphics. CoreGraphics draws with a centre-pen system, so that means that to get a crisp line you need to need to draw on half-point co-ordinates on a non-retina screen and full-point co-ordinates on a retina screen. This can be a bit annoying and makes your head spin if you're doing complex drawing.

I don't even want to think about how complex pixel-perfect drawing is going to be with a @3x scale factor.

I think the centre-pen alignment of CoreGraphics comes from the hardware architecture (maybe it's faster to do that or something). That may not be necessary on today's hardware, so maybe Apple is going to update CoreGraphics so that you can change the pen alignment (that would be incredible! I pray for that at least once a week!)
 

Mattsasa

macrumors 68020
Apr 12, 2010
2,339
744
Minnesota
It's multiplying by 1.5, it's multiplying by 3 since the retina is already multiplied by 2! So all drawings have even pixel count

I am still having trouble understanding this. I understand if an app was developed for an iPhone 3GS or earlier. Then when it was ported for retina that it would have all it's pixels multiplied by 2 and have an even pixel count.

But what about apps that were just natively written for the retina display. They wouldn't necessarily have an even pixel count in everything
 

chleuasme

macrumors 6502
Apr 17, 2012
485
75
I am still having trouble understanding this. I understand if an app was developed for an iPhone 3GS or earlier. Then when it was ported for retina that it would have all it's pixels multiplied by 2 and have an even pixel count.

But what about apps that were just natively written for the retina display. They wouldn't necessarily have an even pixel count in everything
UI is still defined in points, not pixels.
 

Ploki

macrumors 601
Jan 21, 2008
4,308
1,558
Wrong
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6747/htc-one-review/10
The 2013 HTC One was a 4.7" phone with a RGB screen at 468 ppi.

My bad! I know One "S" has a pentile. That HTC one is one nifty phone. I should've known something is up because it does look very nice now that i think about it, especially compare to SGS.

UI is still defined in points, not pixels.

Not sure about iOS, but a lot of graphics on OS X come in @1x and @2x flavours and they're pngs - bitmaps. So no points, pixels. However because of backward compatibility there's still no 100% retina graphics on OS X, meaning everything is developed with non-retina compatibility in mind.

iOS also still uses PNGs, so if you do something "retina exclusive" you could technically make a png graphic 49px wide, which would result in an uneven scaling @3x. The math only holds up if you always take non-retina as baseline. What you have to at this point. because... iPad mini and iPad 2 are still ios7 compatible, so iOS7 still needs to be developed in the same manner.

so say there is a UI element with 999 points....

how is that going to scale to 1.5x.
I don't think there's a way to make it yet since there are still non-retina devices that are iOS7 compatible.
 

bumblebritches5

macrumors 6502
Nov 7, 2012
437
191
Michigang
If this isn't the perfect time to switch both OS X and iOS to a vector UI, I don't know what is.

seriously, the icons and everything is simple it could EASILY be represented as a vector, why the **** not do it?

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That's a nice list. Where is your evidence that it's not rough? It was and is. It often multiplies the time and effort that is needed to complete a project. A limited number of screen resolutions is an advantage that iOS developers have enjoyed for a long time. Customers on the platform value a pristine look and polish and the competition is very heavy. When someone tells you your job is about to get twice as hard and you aren't getting any more time or money to work on it, it's not such an unusual thing to complain.

********. any dev worth anything at all has their UI resources in a vector format, from there all you have to do is render (save) it as a PNg in the proper resolution. boom, you're done.

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Some quick thoughts about this:

If the resolution increases by 1.5 ( in both dimensions) then art assets will take up 2.25 times the space ( uncompressed ).

Is the RAM going to increase by this same amount? This would require 2.25 GB of Ram on the new phones.

...

The other way of storing assets is as vectors, and the iOS7 flat style lends itself to this representation perfectly.
However it takes longer to render the vector artwork, >at current resolutions< , if the resolution increases there will become a point at which the render of the vector artwork is faster than the read/write of the texture pixels.

Seeing as we're looking at a 2.25 increase in the number of pixels perhaps this transition is about to happen.

Text is already rendered as vectors, albeit in a round-about way.



Xcode uses PNGCrush, which optimizes the size of the image using lossless compression, the file size will go up slightly, but not by much.
 

bushido

Suspended
Mar 26, 2008
8,070
2,755
Germany
????? What are U talking about?????were do u see this

for example

16c4508.jpg
 

SmileyDude

macrumors regular
Jul 24, 2002
194
61
MA
Despite your claims to the contrary, some of these things were rough. Even the Intel transition wasn't as seamless as you think it was -- for a lot of code, it may have been quite smooth. I transitioned a few projects myself, but these were already projects that were running on other platforms. If I had an older Carbon based app that needed to be transitioned, with some PPC assembly code sprinkled in it, I'm sure I would've had a much different experience.

And the retina transitions were mainly tough because developers had to go back and have their finished artwork redone in multiple resolutions. If you've never managed a set of assets for a modern application, you probably don't have any idea of just how much stuff is in there. It's a lot. Now double that (or quadruple that to add support for retina iPad apps at the same time) and you get an insane amount of stuff you have to keep track of.

Yes, Apple makes a lot of things easier than other platforms (I'm looking at you, Microsoft) - but that doesn't remove all of the work needed to be done by a developer.

Any perception of how "rough" or "smooth" this will be is irrelevant.

The complaint originates from developers who spend more time complaining than developing.

Remember how "rough" it was getting native iPad apps in 2010?
Remember how "rough" it was waiting for retina iPhone apps later in 2010?
Or how "rough" it was for iPad retina apps in 2012?
Or how "rough" it was for developers to move to the iOS 7 design language?
Or my personal favorite, how "rough" the Intel transition was?
And the "rough" transition to OS X retina apps for the rMBP?
And why stop there? Remember how "rough" System 7 to Mac OS 8 was? And OS 9 to OS X?

The point is, they'll always call it "rough", and it's never as bad as they say it is.

They're always going to complain.


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********. any dev worth anything at all has their UI resources in a vector format, from there all you have to do is render (save) it as a PNg in the proper resolution. boom, you're done.

Vectors certainly help for the bulk of the multiple resolutions, but there is still need for an artist to tweak things at the extremes. This article does a great job of explaining why -- http://www.pushing-pixels.org/2011/11/04/about-those-vector-icons.html

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so say there is a UI element with 999 points....

how is that going to scale to 1.5x.

Not that I agree necessarily with a 3x mode, but if Apple did it, 999 points becomes 999 x 3x to get to pixels. No multiplying by half pixels. UIKit *always* uses points to specify size and location, and points are equal to the size of 1x pixels. So Apple could arbitrarily do any size screen if they wanted to, as long as the multiplier is an integer value.

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iOS also still uses PNGs, so if you do something "retina exclusive" you could technically make a png graphic 49px wide, which would result in an uneven scaling @3x. The math only holds up if you always take non-retina as baseline. What you have to at this point. because... iPad mini and iPad 2 are still ios7 compatible, so iOS7 still needs to be developed in the same manner.

iOS 7 is not compatible with non-retina iPhones/iPod touches, however. And in that case, apps still provide 2x images, but they no longer need to provide 1x images. Again, no uneven scaling required because the view size is defined in points, which are equal to 1x pixels. 3x mode (or whatever other mode) is simply multiplying the point size by 3x to get the actual real pixels. As long as the 3x image sizes are multiples of 3 (just like the 2x ones are multiples of 2), everything just works.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Yeah, cause Apple is totally going to increase their already retina DPI to win a dick measuring contest with Android's OEMs. Who cares if it increases the size of all apps and reduces frame rates for no visually detectable gain.

LOL. macrumors logic at its best. In reality, any new display will stay around 300dpi and use existing retina art. Thanks for the laugh.

You might be quite wrong. The big rumour (and it is a rumour) is a larger phone (in inches). With a larger area, Apple can use the same number of pixels, which would be lower dpi. Anyone with bad eyesight will be happy. But you won't get any more content on the phone.

Or you use more pixels. So how do you think apps will be affected? They can run unchanged, except for a 3x display. Code and the things the user sees are unchanged (bigger because of the bigger screen). Text and photos are better. 2x artwork looks reasonbly good, 3x artwork can be added if the developer wants. OR they run in 2x mode, giving the app more area to use. You see more things, but not bigger.
 

proline

macrumors 6502a
Nov 18, 2012
630
1
Or you use more pixels. So how do you think apps will be affected? They can run unchanged, except for a 3x display. Code and the things the user sees are unchanged (bigger because of the bigger screen). Text and photos are better. 2x artwork looks reasonbly good, 3x artwork can be added if the developer wants. OR they run in 2x mode, giving the app more area to use. You see more things, but not bigger.

Yeah no. But good try. Apple has a policy for this type of thing that has served it well. It's called letter boxing. Just like the iPad, just like the iPhone 5. There is no need for you to bust your brain trying to invent something that is not needed.

On top of that, your logic is ridiculously flawed. First, stretching the existing apps to fill a bigger screen would make existing apps look terrible for no reason and risk breaking them as all the click targets would be too big. Second, optimized apps would still have no use for 3x artwork as long as the dpi remains the same. They would simply need a layout adjustment to account for the extra space.

Let me say this one more time, slowly. There is no need for 3x artwork unless Apple goes to 450dpi, and there is no good reason for Apple to do that. Apple values graphics performance, Android OEMs do not.
 

Sy7ygy

Suspended
Nov 16, 2012
343
168
Arn.

Change this websites name; it has nothing to do with Macintosh computing anymore.
 

MythicFrost

macrumors 68040
Mar 11, 2009
3,940
38
Australia
Any perception of how "rough" or "smooth" this will be is irrelevant.

The complaint originates from developers who spend more time complaining than developing.

Remember how "rough" it was getting native iPad apps in 2010?
Remember how "rough" it was waiting for retina iPhone apps later in 2010?
Or how "rough" it was for iPad retina apps in 2012?
Or how "rough" it was for developers to move to the iOS 7 design language?
Or my personal favorite, how "rough" the Intel transition was?
And the "rough" transition to OS X retina apps for the rMBP?
And why stop there? Remember how "rough" System 7 to Mac OS 8 was? And OS 9 to OS X?

The point is, they'll always call it "rough", and it's never as bad as they say it is.

They're always going to complain.
Uh no. We just don't want the iOS ecosystem heading towards fragmentation. That's a massive advantage that Apple has, and the more new workspaces that need supporting the more work necessary.
 

dannys1

macrumors 68040
Sep 19, 2007
3,649
6,757
UK
Look what you've done!! This is all your fault, you lot wanting bigger screens, now we've all got to go back and do all the damn @2x images @3x and make new web standards and fix this and fix...aegrheagjrehagrjeahgr
 

smetvid

macrumors 6502a
Nov 1, 2009
551
433
How many people really want more resolution on a larger iPhone? Nobody can see anything higher than 326dpi anyway. To me the whole point of a larger iPhone was to fit more on the screen and not to make it larger. I have no problem seeing the content on my current iPhone5. I would however like to have more space for a website or PDF on my phone.

Throwing extra pixels at assets is not going to make them look magically better then 326dpi.

The iPhone5 didn't increase dpi but just increased the amount of physical space. Why couldn't the iPhone6 continue this trend? Keep the dpi the same and just increase the physical space the phone has.

I am an app developer and I have no problem with this considering we did it for the iPhone5. I would see a heck of a lot more benefit to developing apps and games with the extra space then I would from slightly higher dpi assets.
 

hipnetic

macrumors 65816
Oct 5, 2010
1,266
562
I mentioned this a while ago. I posited the theory that one of the reasons why they completely dumbed-down/uglified/simplified the UI was so that they could more easily rescale it to non-proportional resolutions. So, that's the good thing about it. The bad thing is that we're still left with this new awful iOS7 UI.
 

mib1800

Suspended
Sep 16, 2012
2,859
1,250
Can someone explain why is it so difficult and complex to upsize iphone screen?

On Android, there are many resolutions/screen sizes and those manufacturers dont seem to have problem churning phone with different sizes/resolution year after year. And most apps don't even need to be rewritten to work nicely with all these resolution (unlike ios apps which have letterbox or crappy scaling when resolution/screen size changes)
 

HiRez

macrumors 603
Jan 6, 2004
6,250
2,576
Western US
I can already hear the ads from Samsung etc. calling out the new iPhone for not being "full HD" (as inconsequential as that is from a practical standpoint). :rolleyes:

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What's the point of having retina displays if you're only gonna use flat graphics for the UI?

Because "flat" graphics also look like ass when rendered at low resolutions? :confused:
 
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