U.S. Troops: Out of Iraq by June '07?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by xsedrinam, Nov 9, 2006.

  1. xsedrinam macrumors 601

    xsedrinam

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    #1
    That's part of the plan George is proposing next week as he meets with more than 60 members of Congress in Nebraska. Make that George McGovern though. Let alone whether it's the right thing to consider, is it even feasible?
     

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  2. iBookG4user macrumors 604

    iBookG4user

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    #2
    Well, Iraq will probably go back to the way it was before the war, and see that since we backed out before the job was done that they can do something else and we'll back out. And my Brother-in-law will already be out of Iraq by the time that Bush is proposing. At least there won't be a draft when I'm 18 though :D.
     
  3. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #3
    Well, before the war Saddam kept things in check. It won't go back to that. It'll probably end up either being divided into separate states, or engaging in an interminable civil war.

    And for all the lives lost and all the money we, the United States, poured down that rat hole, we'll have discovered the same thing that the Soviets discovered when they tried to secure Afghanistan: you just can't win against these people.
     
  4. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #4
    I disagree, the military won the war a long time ago they just never won the minds,hearts and the peace. The militarys job is to fight wars, not nation building and politics.
    Nation building starts at home and with Islam running these guys minds the rest is just middle east history. Tolerance is a must for any democratic society to thrive. If you just go about killing anyone who doesnt think, worship or act like you then your society is going flop. Just look across the whole mideast, everywhere intolerance seems to rule the day. Without all the oil in that part of the world they would have nothing at all because intolerance towards others is a Big Zero.
     
  5. ozontheroad macrumors 6502

    ozontheroad

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    #5
    Democracy will never work there. Their culture and beliefs will never make it possible.

    The only way to change a country it to educate the younger generation, the problem there is that they live in a world that is very different to the west. A world ruled by violence and corruption. Consequently, growing up under these conditions only inculcates that the use violence and corruption is an acceptable way of dealing with things.

    If coalition troops leave in 07 (i doubt it) they will be back within 5 years.

    The war isn't over by a long shot, its just not a conventional war.

    its something that will most likely evolve into a civil war.

    trying to impose democracy in Iraq is a futile endeavor.
     
  6. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #6
    In what way do you mean feasible? Surely the troops could be out in eight months, but I don't think that's what you're asking.
     
  7. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #7
    I don't think a cut and run will work and will only make it worse in the long run.
     
  8. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #8
    for purposes of having a discussion, i think leaving out loaded terms like "cut and run" will help.

    my concern about leaving is that, after the civil war in which the shia majority asserts itself and runs most or all of the middle and southern regions, is that there is an uninterrupted path of shia influence from iran to israel.

    what bush and others have so stupidly overlooked is that iraq was iran's balancing influence. any efforts from here on out should be taken with a look towards regional stability, not just calming the violence in iraq, and especially not with the ridiculous goal of forcing democracy across the region.
     
  9. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #9
    Are the bases that have been built in Iraq permanent? Will an American presence remain? Will we continue to patrol Iraqi air space?

    I can't imagine that a total withdrawal will take place.
     
  10. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #10
    nor can i.

    we've still got bases in germany, japan, korea...
     
  11. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #11
    Er... yes. That was one of the things that made the war desirable to Bush, along with control of their oil and a domestic PR exercise called the War on Terror.

    Mind you, the third of these elements seems to be evaporating - maybe not too long before the whole situation explodes and the first two are lost also.
     
  12. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #12
    That's only half a job.
    You should bear in mind that those "flops" have been pretty stable as "societies" from the time of Sumeria. It's the drawing of boundaries and the creation of artificial nation-states by the Great Powers which has subverted their order.
     
  13. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #13
    The Ottoman Empire failed because it overextended itself. It's all fine and dandy to blame the "Great Powers" but the failings of the Ottomans need to be taken into account as well.
     
  14. furious macrumors 65816

    furious

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    #14
    every nation has failures. if that is what you use as your measuring stick for moving forward you will never in fact get anywhere.
     
  15. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #15
    Not sure what you mean exactly, but the Ottoman Empire imploded due to the following reasons.

    Overextension of borders
    Corruption
    The unwillingness to adopt modern technology

    The Great Powers made some big mistakes, but Ottoman society was at its lowest point ever when the erstwhile Empire was divvied up.
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    I'm not talking about the viability of the Ottomans (who were, after all, one of the Great Powers once), but of the societies on the ground, who remain in place despite the comings and goings of empires and tyrants.
     
  17. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #17
    It worked so well for the Republicans during the election I think we should keep it around for old time's sake.

    Still would like to know what xsedrinam means by "feasible."
     
  18. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #18
    Where's the literature, the films, the art? Aren't societies in part, defined by their artistic output? How can art flourish in societies where Art is defined by religious leaders?

    Can we blame this lack of a modern culture in the ME on the Great Powers, on the collapse of the Ottoman Empire? Or, on the "stable" societies of the ME?
     
  19. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #19
    What's so great about a "modern culture"?
     
  20. thedude110 macrumors 68020

    thedude110

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    #20
    Flappers, speakeasies and Cubism, to begin with.
     
  21. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #21
    I dunno about you, but I certainly appreciate being able to post here in the political forum at macrumors. How many Saudis can do that?

    I love my Mac! I don't see a lot of technological innovations coming out of the ME.

    I like living in a society that has mostly granted equality to women. I can't imgine living in a segregated society where my only public discourse would be with men. That, despite the fact I'm gay.

    The Catholic Church survived the Reformation, caused by the printing press, by the way, because it was forced to change. Religions simply won't survive if they remain static. It's an innate aspect of humanity that we want to embrace the future, not wallow in the past.
     
  22. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #22
    :)
     
  23. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #23
    well, it's not that they have been living together stably and peacefully until the 'great powers' came along to wreck their paradise.
    The changes in power/society/religion/philosophies have come and gone pretty much in parallel to the rest of the world.

    simply, now they appear to be a few decades 'behind' form a western point of view. historically, that's not that much, socially, it a huge difference.
     
  24. xsedrinam thread starter macrumors 601

    xsedrinam

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    #24
    Ya, Ugg and a good percentage of the posts pretty much flesh out what I had in mind by "feasible". (That is how it's spelled, right?) :)

    The past uses of "pull out" when used by U.S. military ops have had a wide range of practical application and lasting influence. What would be the distinguishing characteristics of a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq? What would it look like? If there is a remaining American presence, what would be the circumstances and parameters? Questions along that line which amount to a feasibility study of what a U.S. exit strategy would look like. Surey they have one.
     
  25. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #25
    Uhhh, they didn't have a post war strategy. One would hope they have a withdrawal strategy but with Rove, Cheney and Rumsfeld running the war, I doubt they have one and if they do, it's probably not realistic. I'd bet a whole lot of pennies that if they have one it contains a victory march down Pennsylvania Ave. Nothing like a shirker in chief reviewing the troops.
     

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