Unlike China- Why You Want a Democracy and Individual Rights

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Huntn, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. macrumors G3

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #1
    ...and just think, this is who our corporations gladly trade with!! What is wrong with this picture?

    Newsweek: China's Growing Pains

    [​IMG]

     
  2. macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #2
    Secret services, detention without trial, withholding evidence from defense teams.

    We got all that in the UK. Plus torture.

    But it's a 'democracy', so everybody feel warm n fuzzy again.
     
  3. thread starter macrumors G3

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #3
    Notice I included "individual rights" in my title. :)
     
  4. niuniu, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013

    macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #4
  5. VulchR, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013

    macrumors 68000

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #5
    The UK does not punish prisoners with hard labor. Have a sense of perspective.... I'd far rather live in the UK than PRC, and frankly many of the Chinese students I teach express no interest whatsoever in returning to the PRC.
     
  6. macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #6
    "Article 73, specifically authorizes secret detention of people suspected of crimes related to state security, terrorism, or serious corruption"

    Have a shot at comprehension before you throw words like 'perspective' around.
     
  7. macrumors 68000

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #7
    Confinement is not hard labor. If you really think there is no difference, the I recommend you listen to 'Holiday in Cambodia' by the Dead Kennedys.
     
  8. macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #8
    It's a song I'd overplayed in my teenage years, as do most Brits. Is it on the US's torture playlist, or do you still loop Barney the dinosaur in Guantanamo?

    In any case I didn't learn global rules on penal labour from it, and neither did you. The US still use penal labour in the military, and your beloved Constitution allows for it.

    None of this excuses secret courts, secret evidence and detention without trial.
     
  9. macrumors 68000

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #9
    So I take it that you agree forced labor is worse than detention, which was rather my point. As for the rest, I'll stop posting now for I have no doubt this is becoming tedious to other forum members. Have a nice day. :)
     
  10. macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #10
    If it was a competition about what's worse, then yes, torture would be worse than penal labour.

    What has that got to do with anything. You come off with some of the most bizarre guff. You need to get pulled up on it more often.

    We're both in Scotland, and it's 11.15. You can cut the HAND rubbish.
     
  11. macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Location:
    California
    #11



    We pretty much have all of these now in the USA. On top of that, it's indefinite detention without a trial, drones hovering over our own airspace and spying on its own citizens, no privacy because all of our online activities are tapped and given to big brother upon request, we can no longer protest our government peacefully (protesters actually being branded as "terrorists"), complete disregard of our basic rights guaranteed to us by our constitution due to the so-called "Patriot Act", and drone strikes on US citizens abroad on foreign nations' soil.
     
  12. macrumors 68000

    Happybunny

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Location:
    's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
    #12
    I think that this Quote from Winston Churchill says it best.
    "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
     
  13. macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Communard de Londres
    #13
    "In the case of a word like DEMOCRACY, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of régime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different".
    -George Orwell, Politics and the English Language
    The DPRK and the DDR being two obvious examples although in my opinion neither the U.K. or the U.S. are democracies.

    The full quote of Churchill's is:

    We accept in the fullest sense of the word the settled and persistent will of the people. All this idea of a group of supermen and super-planners, such as we see before us, “playing the angel,” as the French call it, and making the masses of the people do what they think is good for them, without any check or correction, is a violation of democracy. Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time; but there is the broad feeling in our country that the people should rule, continuously rule, and that public opinion, expressed by all constitutional means, should shape, guide, and control the actions of Ministers who are their servants and not their masters.

    He said it as leader of the opposition in 1947 during an attempt to foil an attempt by the then Labour government to rein in the power of the very undemocratic House of Lords,it would be a mistake to think Churchill was a supporter of actual "democracy".

    He is also alleged to have said "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
     
  14. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Location:
    Cardiff, Wales, UK
    #14
    Not quite the same but I was recently arrested for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They stole my camera, bruised my wrists, lied to me, didn't call my partner ( said I gave them the wrong number when in fact I don't know my house number so read it aloud from my phone)
    I'm going through the process of complaining to the independent police commissioner but they all protect each other.
     
  15. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    #15
  16. macrumors 65816

    citizenzen

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #16
    That you look at the speck of sawdust in China's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye ...


     
  17. thread starter macrumors G3

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #17
    I don't ignore it. Legal systems are all imperfect. The U.S has an atrocious record when it comes to imprisonment based on drug usage. But there is a stated standard and having a trial by jury is better than disappearing in the night is it not?
     
  18. macrumors 65816

    citizenzen

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #18
    Your quote said they were working to reform the system.

    Is that not a positive step?

    I just have a difficult time hammering the Chinese.

    I'm not empowered to change their system.

    I am empowered to help change mine.
     
  19. macrumors 6502a

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    #19
    I hate to break it to you, but, it is more like a lump of coal in China's eye.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/01/13/china-s-labor-pains.html

    I heard an interesting theory on the radio today about the persistence of the labor camps. Quite a few higher-up politicians would like to shut down the camps now, but, the police themselves are resisting it because the threat of being sent to camp tends to make people very reluctant to openly criticize the police in any way.

    ----------

    "The salvation of mankind lies only in making everything the concern of all." -- Solzhenitsyn
     

Share This Page