US Occupation troops no worse than German troops who occupied Europe

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by PalmHarborTchr, May 6, 2004.

  1. PalmHarborTchr macrumors member

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    #1
    Occupation troops always commit crimes against the occupied.

    The German troops occupying France, Belgique, Holland did much of what
    the American troops are doing in Iraq. Both held midnight raids on private homes, taking civilians out into the night and to prison....taking both men and women. Both put them in prison or camps without formal charges both abused these people. Both governments installed puppet governments. The Germans installed Marshal Henri Philippe Petain, to head the VICHY government, gave them self-government in 70 percent of France. The german troops supported the power of the Vichy government. The
    "insurgents" were communists et al, attacking the German soldiers.
    Today we call them the "free French"..they were supported by the British
    Government. They were less than 2 percent of the French population.
    Germany said they invaded these countries to stop the spread of
    "Bolshevism" what we now call Communism. In the US a conservative radio host by the name of Father Caughlin (a Catholic priest) had a Sunday night radio show and supported Mr. Hitler's efforts at fighting "Bolshevism". He was of course a Conservative Radio Host...he had over 25,000,000 listeners on Sunday night through out the US. The Pope in Rome knew the real truth about Mr. Hitler and had Father Caughlin's Bishop pull him off the air.
    History has a way of repeating itself.
     
  2. dragula53 macrumors regular

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    #2
    intentionally inflammatory posts

    which this one is.

    The United States isn't trying to stop the spread of anything.. except random acts of violence towards innocent people.

    The pictures of naked people circulating are the acts of stupid young people. not exactly war crimes. Nothing like the electrified pools of water that went on in the prison before they were there.

    I don't know what the hell these kids were thinking when they decided to do these things, but that's what happens when you put an 18-year-old in charge of something and tell them to act responsibly.

    And occupying armies have never been the most pleasant things to behold, no matter the nationality, or the place of occupation. The media is what is making this entire scenario such a painful thing to behold. The media=bad.

    Moo
     
  3. evil macrumors 6502

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    #3
    while i do not agree with the occupation/war or whatever that is going on in iraq the comparison to nazi occupation seems pretty crazy to me.
    are the u.s. troops rounding up iraqi civilians into a ghetto to be departed?
    are they killing civilians on the spot for having opposing viewpoints or bad blood?
     
  4. MongoTheGeek macrumors 68040

    MongoTheGeek

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    #4
    No so therefore we aren't even "as bad". :D

    I don't see why he went to the Nazis for that comparison. Such a more effective comparison could have been made to Ghengis Khan and the mongols. Why we didn't stack the heads in piles 15' high.
     
  5. virividox macrumors 601

    virividox

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    #5
    this isnt news, this should be placed in the political forum where all this rhetoric is discussed and debated.

    as to who is right, honestly i dont care but dont post to flame. its just not right
     
  6. caveman_uk Guest

    caveman_uk

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    #6
    Nobody came out of WW2 smelling of roses. The victorious forces in the second world war didn't exactly treat their defeated foes as well as we are lead to believe. Large number of German POWs died through neglect in the camps of the western allies. Admittedly the Russians treated their vanquished foes much worse - rivalling the Germans themselves for barbarism - with the liquidation of villages, murder of civilians and prisoners and widespread rape.

    If you want to read about the history that most sources gloss over take a look at 'Crimes and Mercies: The Allies' Policy of Occupation in Germany After 1945' by James Bacque
     
  7. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #7
    Great, so now in addition to sinking to a level where Bush is trying to make a distinction between the torture committed by Saddam and that committed by US troops, now we are drawing distinctions between ourselves and the Nazis? Can our reputation sink much lower?
     
  8. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #8
    Sure, and plenty of people are prepared to sink it even further. The other day on the radio I heard a right wing think-tanker make a few of truly shocking and offensive remarks about this situation. First, that it was being trumped up by the media as a way of undermining US efforts in Iraq and wounding the President; second, that anyone who talks about it is on the side of terrorists, and third, that the treatment of Iraqi prisoners was no worse than college hazing. Fortunately, someone else on the program told this maniac that his ideas were utterly despicable. So yes, as bad as it's become, we don't seem to have any trouble finding Americans who'll tell the rest of us to close our eyes, shut our mouths, and stick out our middle fingers at the rest of the world.
     
  9. Stelliform macrumors 68000

    Stelliform

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    #9
    Only extreme left people trying to start a flame war or a Bush bashing orgy. You decide what he wants...
     
  10. Stelliform macrumors 68000

    Stelliform

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    #10
    Somewhere between the opinion that the U.S. is evil or the U.S. is perfect lies the truth.
     
  11. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #11
    Yes, of course. But this government has failed to realistically manage expectations, or to reckon with the fact that many people in the world start out their day suspicious of American motives. Whether these feelings of cynicism towards the US are entirely justified or not hardly matters -- because what we've done is vastly widened the perceived gulf between what the US says it wants, and what it does. This comes at a time when we desperately needed to narrow this gap. I don't want to base too much of my argument on what the most radical individuals on either side are saying right now, but OTOH, I'm not going to give much quarter to those who'd claim that our standing in the world is improving as a result of the Bush doctrine, when clearly it is deteriorating rapidly.
     
  12. virividox macrumors 601

    virividox

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    #12
    this is laughable. there are so many broad and sweeping statements being made in this thread, without proper proof or evidence.

    war is cruel, war is terrible, blah blah blah we all know that and the victors are never saints. lets get over that

    the question is are they doing more harm than good

    that remains to be seen.
     
  13. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #13
    Interesting logic. US soldiers torture prisoners. Media reports on the torture. Therefore the media is bad.

    Is anyone else seeing a small gap in the logic, here?

    Bush has dropped the ball, big time. His motives were always questionable, but now his methods have proven to violate what he calls his "principles". Apologists are simply blinding themselves to the fact that they've been misled into an unwarrated, destructive war.

    "Our torture isn't as bad as their torture" isn't a valid argument, especially when one claims the purpose of their war was to promote "freedom" and "liberty".
     
  14. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #14
    No, no... the logic, such as it is, is totally consistent: Anything reported by the media that reflects poorly on the Bush administration is automatically suspect, probably motivated by politics and very likely wrong. What's really going on here is a massive case of cognitive dissonance. Some Americans are struggling to reconcile two, contradictory ideas.
     
  15. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #15
    liberal media: asks questions and does investigative journalism
    fair and balanced media: tells us what we all already know
     
  16. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #16
    btw, i really don't give a rat's ass if someone in the US thinks this stuff isn't that bad. what matters is how it's playing in the arab world. 'cuz all this action was supposed to reduce terrorism, right? or was it all really just about killing some arabs?
     
  17. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #17
    The way it works is you contribute something (analysis or opinion) to the thread and others respond.

    If you find this process laughable why are you even reading, let alone posting.
     
  18. poopyhead macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    these are not 18 year old kids, they are people in their mid 20's through 30's some of whom were prison gaurds in the US. Age is in no way an excuse for such obviously psychopathic behavior.
     
  19. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #19
    Hell, we charge 14 year-olds as adults here. Why would anyone suggest these 'kids' are too young to know right from wrong?
     
  20. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #20
    I'm glad someone else see this problem for what it is.

    The real problem is twofold, and has **** to do with domestic politics, paritsan games and "Bush bashing":

    1) How the Iraqi people's views are changed.
    this will impact the volume and intensity of attacks on our troops in Iraq

    2) How the Arab world's views are changed
    this will impact the volume and intesity of attacks against our citizens here and abroad

    Regardless of how badly we insult the Iraqi people, they stand little chance of doing us much harm at home. The Saudis and Egyptians however have shown us they are more than capable of exterminating large numbers of us.

    We could add a third facet to this: How the world's (most of whom were formerly known as "allies") views are changed.

    We've cried wolf, insulted our strongest NATO partners, chilled relations with a warming Russia and would subsequently have a hard time convincing allies to come to our aid even if we were attacked and legitimately needed their help.
     
  21. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #21
    I'd say it's a given that maltreatment occurs in all prisons. There are two issues: First, is it institutionalized by the central government as a normal procedure. Second, how commonplace and widespread is it in any country's incarcerations of whatever sort.

    The reaction in this country against the malbehavior of its own--and commonly honored--people should answer the first question. The second will be answered before too much longer, I think.

    FWIW, I've read that investigations into similar but lesser misdeeds has been going on since the beginning of the incarcerations of any Iraqis. I don't have any specifics as to numbers or results.

    The only way I know that there can be any positive change in any part of the Arab world's reactions is to place maximum charges against the perps, and those found guilty would then receive the maximum sentences. The trials would have to be public.

    'Rat
     
  22. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #22
    Institutionalized? I dunno about written down in instruction books and officially given orders. But somehow enough people looked the other way that many many pictures were taken. And somehow many of the acts they engaged in seem to strike at the very core of Muslim dignity. They seem designed to break the prisoners, not just to be cruel. So I don't know if we can call it institutionized, but someone or multiple people thought this out.
     
  23. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #23
    mac, "institutionalized" in the sense of the Nazi treatment of any resistance against them, where disabling physical torture was commonplace. And, FWIW, in the sense of the killing of people in Iraq by Saddam's police and military. You can continue on to most of the thugocracies around the world.

    Commonplace incarceration with abuse, torture and killing in a relatively casual manner, sanctioned throughout the governing system. The Gulags of the Soviet Empire serve as another example.

    'Rat
     
  24. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #24
    Fair enough 'Rat. But will the rest of the world make that distinction? I'm frankly more concerned with how this makes us look abroad and not so much about the domestic fallout. Our soldiers are in more danger today because of this. If one of them gets taken and abused this way....
     
  25. professor macrumors newbie

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    #25
    I think the damage has long been done. No matter what punishment of those stupid soldiers, the image of the U.S. has already suffered to an irrevocable degree.
    "The fish stinks from the head down" said the old Greeks, and as long as Bush isn't removed in a credible way (remember Nixon?), there will be no peace ever. Matters will get worse. The resentments against the U.S. under its current leadership is not limited to the islamic world (which is much bigger than the Arabic world). No matter what amount of weapons are flown in and bombs are cast, the message brought to them is that of a screwed-up value system. A case of bad marketing for the superiority of Western ideals. A "Western World" which carries religion on their banners but exposes nothing but violence is itself doomed to become a permanent vistim of violence. Of course, this may be part of the master plan, to make it easier to control the American public and to stay in power.
     

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