Vatican paper on Feminism

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Neserk, Aug 1, 2004.

  1. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #1
  2. kaylie_kipe macrumors member

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    #2
    Hmmmm

    I think that the way they try to connect feminist movements and homosexual marriages is ammusing as well.
     
  3. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    They do come up with some crap, don't they? Why does anybody even listen any more?

    (Of course one could ask the same about Bush.)
     
  4. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #4
    There is a reason that many are leaving the fold of the Catholic Church. Some just as US politics are trying hard to hold on old ideals. God maybe infallible, but the church is not.
     
  5. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #5
    Since the same god is apparently telling both sides to kill each other, I don't see much virtue in paying much attention to him or her, either.
     
  6. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #6
    I understand where you are coming from. But the God I was taught to revere and respect would not want any killing in his/her name.

    I subscribe that we as individuals are open to interpret the Bible. And act upon that as an individual. I do not believe that God would want us to take that interarapptation (sp) as the end all for all people.

    For God and Faith resides in each person. Together we can enjoy all that both can provide. But it is not up to "groups" to provide that guidance IMO. Even in a "collective", you hs to have the ability to question.
     
  7. Neserk thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    If someone can find a link to the actual letter or a translation of it, that would be great.

    I see woman who choose to work and raise a family at the brunt of criticism, not the other. And being a mother/parent is not a profession. Being a parent/mother is a relationship.

    And why don't they laud fathers who choose to stay home and raise their families?
     
  8. 3rdpath macrumors 68000

    3rdpath

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    #8
    as a stay at home dad of two daughters( 3 1/2 & 3 months) i can attest that very few people laud us guys...but though it may be thankless from an outside perspective, i get all the thanks i need from my kids and my wife.

    btw, i've never worked harder in my life.:eek:

    as far as the vatican goes...it's not like everything the pope says is worthless, far from it, but there seems to be about a 10 year lag between reality and the vatican's grasp of it.

    imo, radical feminism has almost zero to do with the absence of mothers at home with their kids. but hey, maybe i'm just a radical masculinist...
     
  9. Chane macrumors newbie

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    I don't think the connection between feminism and gay marriage is totally wrong.

    Before the feminist movement, gender roles were much more dominant. Men had to show their physical and intellectual dominance and aggression to earn respect, while women, who could not really get jobs to support themselves and possibly a family, had to rely on marrying a man who could. With these limitations, homosexuals and feminists, who often defied the gender roles, were given no respect and were seen as epitomizing the thing that the "normal people" stayed away from.

    In that society, men were the "prize," so to speak. Women were forced to dress a certain way and act a certain way so they could win the luxury of living with a steady flow of income. Ultimately, the man had the choice of whom to marry.

    Now, with the advent of a more-closely equal society (in terms of men and women) women are liberated in the fact that even without a husband, she can successfully support herself. She can marry more for love than money. She has gained a respect that only money and power can give. With the fall of the better man always being dominant and aggressive and the better woman being quiet and submissive, I believe that a positive (or at least accepting) atmosphere for gender-role-defying people has arisen. Along with this comes a more accepting atmosphere for homosexuals, and thus homosexual marriage.

    With that said, I think society will benefit from the destruction of debilitating gender roles.

    I'm not sure how relevant this analogy is, but consider our close relatives, the chimpanzees and the banobos.

    Chimpanzees are very aggressive and have strict gender roles. They live in areas where food is scarce because they typically share habitat with gorillas. Because of this, chimpanzees do not live in large groups and go their separate ways to find food. Chimpanzee often show their aggression by beating their mates.

    Bonobos, on the other hand, are very peaceful. They live in areas that are more plentiful in food. Because of the lack of pressure to find food, they establish social groups, including groups of females that support each other. It is said that bonobos are highly sexual creatures, who seem to mate for pleasure. It has also been documented that homosexual acts in both males and females were not uncommon.

    Now, I don't know if there is a correlation, but doesn't it seem like the places where homosexuals live openly are usually places that are also fairly affluent?

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/07/3/l_073_03.html

    Of course, I haven't read a translation of the paper, so I'm only guessing this is the sort of connection being made.

    (p.s. I'm a long time reader, first time poster)
     
  10. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #10
    Interesting point. One might also point out that in a more warlike society there is an increased need to keep the propagation of the species at a high replacement level, hence more emphasis on heterosexual relationships and the female breeding function, and more regulation of sexual roles to ensure the supply of specialized fighting males. It's a kind of "war economy".
     
  11. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #11
    side note:
    cardinal Joseph Ratzinger who wrote this 37 page 'letter' is prefect of the 'Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith' (Congregatio pro doctrina fidei)
    which was renamed from 'Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office' (Sacra Congregatio Sancti Officii) which was renamed from 'Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition' (Congregatio Romanae et universalis Inquisitionis)
     
  12. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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