Venezuela social programs easily the biggest and most comprehensive in Latin America

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Chacala_Nayarit, Dec 27, 2005.

  1. Chacala_Nayarit macrumors 6502

    Chacala_Nayarit

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2005
    Location:
    Lakewood, Washington
    #1
    In the past, certain posters on this forum have expressed the view that Chavez is not meaningfully different from other Latin American leaders, that, as far as helping the poor, fighting against poverty, etc., he has an undeserved reputation for action. Here is a recent article from the BBC which I think is a more than adequate reply to this view:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4400052.stm

    Viva Chavez! :D
     
  2. tristan macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Location:
    high-rise in beautiful bethesda
    #2
    I read this article, and yes, I think the programs are basically a good thing. On the other hand, my mother, who owns property down there but only visits a couple times a year, now has to sell her condo because Chavez is seizing all "unoccupied" property and selling it cheap. It's just old fashioned class warfare, as far as I'm concerned. (Not that my mom's upper class by any means - just owns an inexpensive rental property and then rents her own place.)
     
  3. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #3
    While it is clearly unfortunate for your mother, such a "correction" is long overdue in Venezuela.
     
  4. Lazyhound macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2005
    #4
    Yes, it is entirely just for the government to seize private property.

    Looters.
     
  5. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Location:
    LaLaLand, CA
    #5
    Happens all the time in the US. Eminent domain.

    Gotta love progress. :rolleyes: Let's pave over some politicians house to make a parking lot after giving him pennies on the dollar and see how he likes it.
     
  6. superbovine macrumors 68030

    superbovine

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    #6
    First off, in most cases the "greater good" in the view of our elected officials prevail in eminent domain.

    In Chavez's case they take the condo's, sell them, and his government steals the money. The entire Latin-American political system is based on greed and power. You might say, that is what any government does? If you have ever done business with any government in latin america or grew up in latin america, your little eminent domain comparison is a bit lacking in clout. The US government by miles and miles has less corruption than any latin american government.

    Yes he helps the poor, but he also funds FARC that wants to overthrow a democratically elected government in Colombia, and supports a President of Bolivia who has flat out said that he will support Coca farming. But, hey as long as he steals money and feeds poor people we can just pretend he isn't trying to spread cocaine throughout the world, and over throw colombia and install a communist government.
     
  7. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Location:
    LaLaLand, CA
    #7
    It is quite tiny, my comparison. One could even say, minuscule in scale. But it's good to know that we aren't as bad as that.

    Except, you know, that still doesn't make me feel any better at all. That's like saying we aren't as bad as... something really bad. That would be... bad.
     
  8. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2002
    Location:
    Denver
    #8
    LOL. I'm glad we here in the US have never overthrown any democratically elected governments or funded rebel groups. That would make us bad people. :D
     
  9. tristan macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Location:
    high-rise in beautiful bethesda
    #9
    Are you trying to equate the US and Venezuela?
     
  10. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2002
    Location:
    Denver
    #10
    No, I'm just saying people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

    Superbovine put up those examples as things that make Venezuela a bad place and Chavez a bad man. I was just pointing out (snarkily) that we also have done those things.
     
  11. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #11
    Perish the thought! Your social programs are nowhere near as good.
     
  12. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #12
    It's true that South America has a lot of corruption but I think it's important to examine why there is so much. Maybe it's because the US interfered so much in SA politics over the years. SA has been denied the opportunities of self determination, mainly because of US intervention and support for corrupt right wing regimes. Had that not taken place, maybe there wouldn't be a need for men like Chavez.

    Some of the most offensive people I've ever known have been wealthy Venezualans. Their utter disregard for their fellow citizens was astonishing. Admittedly I've only known a few but where there's smoke there's usually fire. Chavez seems to at least be justifying his actions, something that few right wing south american leaders ever did.

    There may be less outward corruption in the US but the Halliburtons and the oil companies are proof that corruption exists here on the inside.
     
  13. tristan macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Location:
    high-rise in beautiful bethesda
    #13
    None of us live in corruption-free countries, but we can still throw stones - we know right and wrong. I also don't think Venezuela or SA gets to blame all of its ills on the US either forever. For a couple years, sure. But Eastern Europe is pursuing economic integration and reform after years of Soviet Rule, which was much more heavyhanded than ours was. Why can't South America do the same? And why are Korea and Taiwan and Japan so prosperous after years of American intervention?

    By the way, venezuelans themselves are culturally louder and more energetic and outspoken, just like ecuadorians tend to be more reserved nd polite. Maybe you mistook cultural differences for crassness.
     
  14. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #14
    The EU has stepped in with financing, jobs in the west, EU structural funds, etc, etc. It's hardly an equal comparison as eastern Europe has been assisted by the west not hindered by the US like much of SA has. Also, you needn't look far in the new member countries and also those who want to join to find corruption and paranoia. Poland is a good case in point.

    It's not a cultural issue but one of racism and paternalistic attitudes towards the (mostly non-European) lower classes. I can't speak for much of the rest of SA but the same exists in Mexico to a lesser degree.
     
  15. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #15
    Pinochet is one of those directly responsible for much of SA's bad economic performance and he is one who was supported by the US. Maybe by finally taking him to task for the corruption, theft and murders he was responsible for, SA will begin to find its way out of its US led Cold War morass.

    http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2005/12/30/ap2421061.html
     
  16. superbovine macrumors 68030

    superbovine

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    #16
    You cannot blame US, corruption is a function of culture not US influence. The corruption stems from Spanish influence and the divide between rich and poor.
     
  17. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #17
    Blaming the Spanish is a bit rich. US industry has done very nicely from US political support of corrupt regimes, in terms of access to resources, preferential trade deals, cheap labour and arms sales.
     
  18. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #18
    The corruption may well stem from Spanish influence but it was abetted by the continual interference of the US throughout the last century. If the US had stayed out of SA politics tyrants like Pinochet would have never come to power and drugs wouldn't now be the mainstay of so many SA farmers.

    Name one SA country that is better off for heavy handed US intereference in its domestic policies. There aren't any, are there?
     
  19. superbovine macrumors 68030

    superbovine

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    #19
    I was referring to the basis for corruption not the opportunity that have presented themselves to take advantage of a situation. The culture in latin america is based on spanish and indian cultures. in other words to say that blaming is spanish a bit rich, because there is a very good historical basis to backup my claims. My family is from Central America, and I attended University in the US and in Spain. I am pretty sure, when I say the cultural of corruption in Latin America comes from Spanish influence I am correct.
     
  20. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #20
    The culture of corruption is universal.
     

Share This Page