Wake Up America

Discussion in 'Community' started by mymemory, Dec 27, 2002.

  1. mymemory macrumors 68020


    May 9, 2001
    I received this e-mail and found that it is a fairly good comparison. The millions of people Mr. Carrillo talks about is a percentage of the US population. Obviously we do not have that number of inhabitants in Venezuela. We hardly reach 26 million. So when more than 2.5 million (just in Caracas) are openly and actively asking for a an immediate change in a peaceful manner, in the streets, every day... they should be heard and respected.

    Subject: Wake Up America

    American Friends:

    In proper proportions, what the Citizens of Venezuela are doing arise questions that I want to put forth to you:

    What would America do if your President Owned (yes owned, not influenced) Congress, the Supreme Court, the Attorney General, and all high officials?

    What would America do if President George Bush forced Secretary Colin Powell into early retirement, and with him, most 4, 3 and 2 Star Generals, and replaced them with One Star Generals and Colonels that he feels are true to him?

    What would America do if 22 million Americans demanded to have Free Elections to do away with a corrupt Government, which had decided to openly embrace communism, when you definitely had not voted to have your Democracy assassinated?

    What would America do if President George Bush decided that he didn't trust the Army to be unconditional to him, and thus decided to have Milosevic send him some of his Elite troops to protects him from the American Citizens and assure he stays in power?

    What would America do if President Bush decided to fire Vice President Dick Cheney, and put a Lieutenant friend from the Army in his place? and then fire the three Vice Presidents!

    What would America do if President Bush decided to fire all management and take over EXXON MOBIL., AMOCO, CONOCOPHILLIPS, SHELL America, CHEVRON, TEXACO, OCCIDENTAL PETROLEUM, SUNOCO, and all smaller oil companies? and when American citizens working in them went on Strike, President Bush decided to call the National Guard to attack these unarmed protesters, men and women, with Tear Gas and to hit them with Machetes?

    What would America do if President Bush asked Fidel Castro to invade the USA on his behalf, have mercenaries come ashore and put them in the officers home's in Annapolis, Tallahassee, the Georgia and South !Carolina coast , and have Mrs. Powell and the wives of other officers cook for them so that these mercenaries are not seen or detected by the way they speak?

    What would America do if 120 million Americans took to the streets in protest against a legally elected President who decided that he didn't like Democracy any more, and that Americans would now be ruled by Osama Bin Laden and friends?

    These incredible things are happening in Venezuela right now. The citizens of Venezuela will not give up. Are you going to continue to support "President" Chavez's Regime and have our blood in your conscience?

    Oil will not flow as long as this modern day Dictator is in Power.

    America: What are you going to do?

    Americans: Will you be at peace with yourself with the decision you have to make? Remember: Doing nothing is a Decision!

    You are a Society with principles and values. Show them to us, to you, and to the world.

    30% of the US oil comes from Venezuela and Amoco is a venezuelan gas company. From december the 2nd Venezuela stops shipping any kind of fuel or oil and the only one they have left had gone to Cuba, not to Venezuela. The comunism is returning and is getting his financial resources from the venezuelan oil. The people in Venezuela know that and are fighting against it ¿Do you care about a secund and more powerfull comunist wave starting in South America?

    You can do something.

    Spread the message.
  2. Kid Red macrumors 65816

    Dec 14, 2001
    Ah, first, Venezuela only supplies about 15% of US oil, and secondly, what are we supposed to do? Grab guns and fly down there and support the revelution? What happens down there would weigh more heavily on my conscious then the people who die in Africa every day gunned down by rebels? The innocent victims of countless terrorism suicide bombings? The massacre at Kosivo?

    Sorry, this is your conuntries time to stand up for itself, and it's less heart breaking then the slaughtering going on everywhere in the world.

    Can I sleep at night knowing that Venezuela has a corrupt government? Yea, why? How many countires DON'T have a corrupt government. Possible war with irag, N. Korea starting up plutonium production, Al Queda still operational, the Middle East still bordering major outbreaks and I'm supposed to feel something soley for a country upset at it's goivernment?

    Sorry, the guilt trip approach doesn't work here. There's more important things to lose sleep over.
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601


    Jul 18, 2002
    wow. nice attitude. no wonder everyone hates us.

    mymemory -- the reality is, as long as Chavez keeps the oil flowing, the US will let him do whatever he wants.

    so there was an oil strike. that's the way to get Bush's attention. but is it still on? i'd heard the other day that some oil tankers were sailing.

    you and your country are in my thoughts. there are still a few of us in the US that have an idea of what goes on in the world. good luck.
  4. rainman::|:| macrumors 603


    Feb 2, 2002
    Most americans who are at all attentive to foreign events know the situation; the media over here picks up on things pretty quickly. My question is this: Why do people in other countries hate us for being the world's policeman, until they need our support, then they just assume it's our duty to step in? And to protect our oil interests, no less? I don't think we should be in iraq, and i don't think we should be in venezuela.

  5. blackpeter macrumors 6502a

    Aug 14, 2001
    Hear, hear!

    PS: My Memory, I am all for these forums being a place for a vast range of topics. But please, if you must post your political ramblings (seems like all you've been posting lately) then at least post something that makes some sense.

    "What would America do if Osama Bin Laden was in charge?"

    Come on. :rolleyes: Are you really trying to start a dialogue with that kind of nonsense?

    On another note, can you update us about your older brother jerking it on your G4 tower. At least I could follow that story!
  6. rainman::|:| macrumors 603


    Feb 2, 2002
    Also, a greater percentage of the US population than the citizens that actively want change in venezuela want things like gay rights, legalization of marijuana, tax reforms, social program reforms, military reforms, militant action reforms, changes in foreign policy, the list goes on and on. Where's Venezuela showing support for our people? Hell, we're under a president that was not elected by the people, where's Venezuala's support?

    We have plenty of our own problems. Admittedly, i have great sympathy for Venezualians right now, and i think that what's happening is an atrocity. So don't think me an uncaring monster...

  7. Kid Red macrumors 65816

    Dec 14, 2001
    Everyone hates us because we focus on famine, death, and terroism? Sorry, but I don't see any of that in Venezuela. Now if Chavez starting offing the stikers or the oil workers then we'd have issue. I'm saying right now it's a oh well, it's your backyard. It's just a civil uprising and protest, who cares? I think we shoul care about the cuban people and the iraqi people before the venezuelan people.

    Secondly, Chavez doesn't have the oil pumping for the US because the oil workers are on strike!
  8. Judo macrumors regular

    Mar 6, 2002
    New Zealand
    Chavez has kept the oil flowing freely to the U.S, and because of this America has pretty muched turned a blind eye. Now the people of Venezuela are standing up and the the workers are striking, which is stopping the oil flow, America is taking more notice.


    Stop creating a war that will give you an easy win and achieve not a hell of alot, and help your closer neigbour who is in need of it, and before it gets worse.

    And yes protesters have been killed by Chavez's army.
  9. mymemory thread starter macrumors 68020


    May 9, 2001
    Kid Red

    People like you make the world wish "why only two stupid towers and not an entire atomic bomb?"

    When the US was in problems everybody was involve, when the gulf war we didn't rise the oil price (it was about $6, today is around %35).

    If your crappy ****ty mind can not go beyound the phorno you get from the internet every day, let me tell you that your media and your ****ty president is looking for a war because with all your ****ty technology you haven't been able to find Bin Laden yet. Let me tell you that with "all the superiority that you think you have".
    1. Venezuela is turning comunist.
    2. Brazil
    3. Ecuador.
    4. Argentina.
    5. Bolivia.

    The problem is not the US, the problem is that United Nations is in the US and is a very good moment to see what is more important venezuelan people or venezuelan oil.

    And by the way you are making me and every one else feel glad of september 11th. specially because the next tiem you will have to send your troops to the far east and to south america just because all of you where so fuc*ing smart.

    And I didn't write that article and if you do not like politics do not read my threads!
  10. rainman::|:| macrumors 603


    Feb 2, 2002
    See, mymemory, this is why i don't like discussing these things with you. I didn't get personal; you did. There's no excuse for the profanity or personal attacks on us and the victims of 9/11 simply because we don't agree with you.

    If you don't like the responses you get to these threads, DONT POST THEM.

  11. mymemory thread starter macrumors 68020


    May 9, 2001
    Sorry but, in the US gay people can go and protest in front of the White House, the last time we went to protest to our "white house" 38 people died... that was in April and we still not able to go.

    When there is a congregation of gay people in the US there are not snipers shooting at them, we had 3 people dead last december 19th in a square far away from where the Miraflores Palace is (our white house).

    May be you watch too much movies but the last time we had a civil war in Venezuela was in 1887 (or something like that). We do not have guerrillas we do not have armed problems with our borders, nothing. That is why this situation is so dangerous, Venezuela was the mos peacefull country in South America until 1992.

    Every time there is a war in the world people run to Venezuela, the thing is that you have the History Channel that is US made.

    Last week the actual dictator we have took all the money for what would be our Fort Knox, toons of money, that man has more money than Bill Gates and Ted Turner togather. No wonder we have people from Libia here training other people.

    THis is not a venezuelan problem, this is a problem of the entire emisphere, this peolle have so much money and their goal is to create a terrorist group togather with Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, etc.

    We are even building bactereological weapons, the labs that once where placed in Cuba are here in my city. The pilot of the presidential airplane said it to the press 3 weeks ago.

    Now, who has the weapons to attack/stop that? The US.

    I was in a meeting 2 weeks ago where the topic was: how the civilians can support the military.

    This is gonna end up like Bosnia or something like that.

    The big mistake is to think this is a Venezuelan only problem, this is the product of the World Social Forum and Fidel Castro after he lost the Soviet Union.

    What you can do?

    Spread the letter that I ddin't write by the way.
  12. zimv20 macrumors 601


    Jul 18, 2002
    Re: Kid Red

    well, you're not going to make any friends w/ that one.

    i sympathize w/ your plight and loss of democracy (it's happening here in the US too, btw), but your comment was uncalled for.

    the new yorkers i know have no lust for war, but they're the ones in the crosshairs. not all americans support bush, or a war on iraq. and some north americans do care what's going on in south america.
  13. blackpeter macrumors 6502a

    Aug 14, 2001
    Re: Kid Red

    MyMemory, you are way out of line.

    Feel glad about 9/11? What kind of person would ever say something like that?

    I used to think that you had something to say, and that maybe your English and people-skills sometimes got in the way. But now you've confirmed what (until now) I've only suspected: You are a complete LOSER who's very existance is filled with shame and hate.

    Either apologize or get off these boards for good.

    I don't ever want to hear you gushing about Apple or MacWorld, because Apple is an American company and MacWorld is fueled by the very capitalist culture that you so love to criticize.

    You make me sick.
  14. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    This is another case of someone having a great case that should be so easy to argue and then completely ****ing it up. It's not hard to argue that the US's foreign policy is a joke with regard to Venezuela and much of the rest of the world, but if you need to make Sept. 11 comparisons to get that point across, then you definitely need to do a better job of putting reason before passion.
  15. Nipsy macrumors 65816


    Jan 19, 2002
    World region number #1:

    Pleads for decades with America to get the fsck out, to get away from their regions politics, then blows up the twin towers.

    They do not want us there.

    World region #2:

    Pleads with America to help them maintain the capitalist way. Asks for help and involvement, then insults our country's reaction to group #1.

    Here's the harsh reality:

    The world is a big sandbox at school, filled with world leaders. America is the big rich good looking popular kid. He's polite, but he has a temper, and can be a bit pig-headed. If you make friends with America, and don't do anything stupid, you'll have fun playing in the sandbox. If you make a boo boo, you may get a timeout, or you may find yourself harshly removed from the sandbox, sometimes without your lunch money, and sometimes a broken nose...

    Now, the problem is, some people want our help, and some people hate our help, and all the while, we have our own country to run before we can show others how to run theirs, and that makes people upset.

    If the Arabs want us out of the middle East, stop selling us oil. We'll leave.

    If Argentina wants our help, the diplomats should be offering us some valuable quid pro quo.

    Neither will happen, because worldwide, money has become more important than peace/stability.
  16. Kethoticus macrumors 6502


    Hey Nipsy, I think you made some great points.

    Quite frankly, I'm tired of people being apologetic for the US and saying that the world has a right to hate us. Then some say that 9/11 was justified. You know what? A lot of INNOCENT and INTERNATIONAL people died that day, and most horribly. If you think that's a good thing, then you deserve whatever you get in Venezuela and you have no pity from me. Does my country deserve criticism? Of course it does--but along with every other nation and for different reasons.

    Secondly, I think my country has its hands full at the moment. We are not all-powerful.

    * Iraq (which if a benign regime can be established, may help the US a great deal in its battle with Muslim extremists--but this will come at a great price of both people-based and financial resources).

    * N Korea (a two-front war would indeed drain our resources, but we may have no choice).

    * National economy (in recession, and it almost seems like we're flirting with a depression).

    Quite frankly, the President (whether you feel he's legitimate or not) has his hands full. Do I think he's wonderful? Absolutely not. But I do know that the gov't is getting hit hard from several different sides right now. We simply can not afford to police everyone everywhere. That is the UN's job, ultimately, a job they are carrying out most incompetently. Get on them, not on us. They're the org that needs to wake up. Why does it fall on our shoulders? And if we do respond, what happens? Some would say...

    * That we have no right to be interfering in the affairs of others;

    * That we're trying to impose our values on others;

    * That we're being an imperialistic nation trying to take over or exterminate a dark-skinned people; or

    * That we're only going down there because we want a foothold in an oil-rich region of the world.

    Is this not the assanine rhetoric we've heard over our intentions toward Afghanistan and Iraq? The US is damned no matter what choice it makes. We're not doing enough, we're doing too much, or our motives are evil. Shoot, I almost feel that we should just kick the UN out and tell the rest of the world to kiss our hineys and become neutral. Need our help? Sorry. Look to the UN. The only time we'll fight is when it directly concerns the safety and well-being of our citizens. And if the world doesn't like our defending ourselves, even unilaterally, too frickin' bad. The UN is not a world federation but a confederacy that is supposed to be based on mutual cooperation. In practice it is anything but.
  17. Juventuz macrumors 6502a


    Dec 4, 2002
    I do seem to remember an attempted coup in Venezuela this year and the US supported the ousting of Chavez.

    The US was heavily criticised as well for it, people telling us to keep our noses out of it and not to disrupt democracy. Well it now seems that those same people want our help to overthrow their democracy.

    They wanted us to play by the rules then so should they, they want him out fine. Wait until the next election.
  18. zarathustra macrumors 6502a


    Jul 16, 2002
    Philadelphia, PA
    Ok, I see how this goes.

    Half the world is screaming at the Americans to get out of their region, and the other half is screaming for us to get in.

    But it seems very funny(?) that the ones screaming for us or the UN, are in trouble one way or the other, but the ones wanting us out either have had American/UN help already and want to move on with the benefits created by the UN/US.

    I feel for your people mymemory, but up until trouble started, and there was relative peace and wealth in the country, you (as a nation) were criticizing us, and selling us oil at a nice premium. Maybe this will make our gov't realize that we need alternative sources of energy, so we can withdraw from all these countries we depend on for oil. Good riddance.

    Have a Good day.


    The UN is in the USA, because it seems to be the most stable counbtry for the reasons you listed in the original post. Plus if you look at the numbers, the US foots most of the UN's bills. The UN will pass a legislation, and will ask for more money, and in the process make themselves look good. Do you know how much international debt was simply waived by the US/UN???? The world would be in a much worse situation, my friend.
  19. Zion Grail macrumors regular

    Dec 24, 2002
    I personally think we desperately need to install the infastructure for alternative energy sources as soon as possible.

    Get hydrogen fuel cells, fusion or fission power, and and and all "clean" power sources out there and working. Eliminate all old fossil-fuel burning power plants. Get this new stuff up and running, and get rid of our dependance on oil. The environment will thanks us, and the pocketbooks of nations that fund these terrorist organizations will quickly atrophy.

    Then, we should pull out of pretty much everywhere. People want us out? Fine. At that point, we should leave post haste. Then let's see how they feel about us.

    Our government is pretty damn good compared to others, but is not flawless. The greatest thing about freedom of speech in democracy is that we are our harshest critics. Balance.

    I feel for Venez.'s problems. I really do. However, we are already heavily engaged with two other enemies, not to mention other worldwide critics. We have our plate full. We guage our war readiness by our ability to fight on two fronts, not three.

    Iraq will likely not be a huge threat militarily. They had a very large army before the Gulf War, and we easily defeated them. We can do it again.

    On a better note - The feelings of the US in Iran are quickly changing - the people HATE their government, and are moderate to the US. In fact, they are hoping that we will aid them in installing a democracy. When Bush said that the government (and not the people of) Iran was the part of the "axis of evil", and that it's only the Iran government that's a problem, the people in Iran cheered. Well, not parading in the streets (for fear of being killed), but they were quite happy. One Iranian even said to MSNBC something along the lines of this:

    "America and President Bush has given us new hope. We can't express how happy we are to hear that America understands the situation we are in."

    A US-friendly government in Iraq and Iran would be a huge step forward to peace.

    North Korea will prove more troublesome. They are very strong, and have China as an ally. If peace can be negotiated, things will improve. Also, if Korea can be unified into a US-friendly capitalist government, peace in that region will be far improved.

    The world situation is grim, we know. But not beyond hope. Alternative fuel is priority #1, or should be, IMO. Then, establish peace in the Middle East, then Asia, then work on South America and Africa. A strong worldwide economy and peace status is possible. It's just going to take a lot of work.
  20. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000
    and we did so with marcos, noriega, and saddam hussein...letting them run rampant if we thought they were on our side
  21. wdlove macrumors P6


    Oct 20, 2002
    Health Care costs in the US are higher as a % of GNP than any other Industrialized nation! Has increased even with our recession. Drugs ads in magazines & on TV increase the use, accounts for alot our medical costs. tHe cost is increasing rapidly, up 0.8% in 2001. Its the largest icrease recorded. Hopefully we can have some meanigfull reform soon.

  22. Juventuz macrumors 6502a


    Dec 4, 2002

    I think you might have the wrong thread.

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