War in Iraq and Terror

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by krohde, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. macrumors member

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    #1
    I recently posted a number of entries to my blog about the war in iraq and the war on terror. They are quite critical but I would like to get some feedback so please visit my blog. http://www.rohdeonline.com

    Thanks

    KR
     
  2. macrumors 68030

    CmdrLaForge

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    #2
    Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    Well I can agress partly. But what has changed between the beginning of the war and now ? No one beliefed in WMD !
     
  3. macrumors newbie

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    #3
    Every now and then somebody will post an article over at Time Bomb 2000 that is interestingly analytical. Saw one, recently, speaking to the problems we have in dealing with "Terrorism".

    A major problem is the difference in the comparative psychology of us Westerners and Al Qaida.

    While we may see it as a "War on Terror", they don't see themselves as terrorists against whom somebody is at war. If they were indeed terrorists, where are the followups? Where are the actual events which would spread terror, such as shooting up a shopping mall?

    OBL himself said he did not expect the total collapse of the Towers. That they fell was Allah's will, which merely served to reinforce their sense they had done a righteous deed. Their reality seems to require an attack on the major symbols of the Great Satan, as opposed to the smaller attacks in the style of such as Hamas et al.

    Insofar as a connection between Iraq and Al Qaida, I'd imagine it was indirect. That is, Saddam probably saw them as useful tools, rather than as any sort of partners. He could provide some money and training areas free of supervision, but no Iraqis would be identified with any acts. He probably would have been willing to provide some sort of WMD, but dependent on the proposed use or target. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." is a saying from antiquity in the Arab world.

    It seems to me that the WOT is (as has been said) actually being fought in the shadows, in the back alleys by various countries' intelligence agencies, and police forces. I imagine that from time to time special squads from units such as the SAS or Delta Force would be used.

    Our efforts in Iraq seem to me to be part of a larger geo-political chess game--but I'm not sure all the players understand the rules. Heck, maybe not even the goal! Afghanistan was definitely terrorism-associated, as the Taliban had sold (for money from ObL) a "free zone" to Al Qaida.

    I said not long after 9/11 that trying to eliminate such as Al Qaida would be at least a five- to ten-year effort--and that was before we went into Afghanistan. I've seen nothing at all to make me shorten that guesstimate.

    Interesting times.

    'Rat
     
  4. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    Your right. The 15 memebers of the Security Council just kept sanctions on the country of Iraq for over a decade for the fun of it. :rolleyes:
     
  5. macrumors 68000

    3rdpath

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    Re: Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    actually, the sanctions were more out of spite than fun but the end result was the same...the population suffered and the end result( saddam's departure) was NOT achieved.

    and i find it shocking how little the western leaders understand the mentality of these regions. many many of these people know of nothing else but fighting. they will find an enemy, whether it's america, some religious faction, the kurds...whoever. as long as we are there, we will be a target.

    seems pretty simple to me.

    is russia's folly in afghanistan such a distant memory?
     
  6. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    No, you are right. They will keep getting radicals there. Our friends the Saudis were allowing sermons this past friday calling for radicals to go to Iraq and kill the evil satan.
     
  7. macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #7
    Iraq is looking uglier and uglier the longer it goes on.
     
  8. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #8
    Yep, time for the UN to come in.
     
  9. macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #9
    Yeah, but they're feeling a little irrelevant. I think we may have to kiss some ass a little now to get the kind of cooperation that will really save out butts.
     
  10. macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    Well, people are comparing this to Nam. We lost 58,000 troops there, and have not lost 500 in Iraq. Big difference. We have to get Saddam, and quick.
     
  11. macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Bush really screwed us here I think. That was one of my big gripes pre-war, we were dissing our allies to the point where if things didn't go as planned we would be hard pressed to get them to help us. Germany and France espescially have reasons to wait and stall to make us pay for being so pushy. They know if we are coming to them for help we are really over a barrel, and that's not a position I like to be in.
     
  12. macrumors 68040

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    Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    And what makes you think that Bush would release the evidence immediately? Wouldn't it be even more clever to hold onto it for months and then spring it on the world?

    It is very likely that Bush is planning to make the Democrats look like jackasses not only to pad his chances of re-election but also to erode senate Democrat opposition to military action in Syria.

    Bingo, Bush kills three birds with one massive stone.

    Only time will tell....
     
  13. macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Re: Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    Yeah I'm a little worried about this too. The democrats will be highly vulnerable if they are attacking the president on Iraq when he comes up with some WMD's, or gets Saddam. I wouldn't even doubt UBL gets reeled in right around election time. I'm quite sure these thoughts and others go through the head of Karl Rove.
     
  14. macrumors newbie

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  15. macrumors 68040

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    Indeed, I think this is rather imminent and I don't like the thought of our military getting that spread out and entrenched in the middle east. Due to a few recent comments by the Bush and Blair administration about having "concrete proof" of Iraqi WMDs that will come to light in September, I see the following taking place:

    Bush reveals a large cache of Iraqi WMDs, oddly enough Syria happens to have a hand in the matter since they assisted in smuggling much of them out of the country.

    Major Implication 1: The Republicans will cast the Democrats as liberal wackos (a view that they have greatly assisted with their actions the last few months) and will proceed to annihilate the credibility of all the Presidential contenders, especially Dean. The Republicans will "remind" the nation that Bush has been saying there is evidence of WMDs in Iraq the whole time and that the Democrats obviously have no faith in American righteousness or the executive office. The Democrats will respond with their failed technique of moving even further to the left, which tends to be the political equivalent of digging a hole and jumping in.
    Bush wins second term, Democrats lose any sway over the Senate and the House slips further still of their grip.

    Major Implication 2: Syria had a hand in smuggling WMDs out of Iraq, which conviniently explains why it was so hard to find them right away. Obviously, since Syria has obtained WMDs and already had stockpiles then an attack on Isreal must be imminent. Some of them might even make their way into terrorist hands. Bush will make this case for war and will have already eroded any shred of Democrat resistance as their credibility will be severely hurt and the party will be in chaos. The Call to Arms passes through the legislative branch with ease and America is in Syria the next day.

    How's that for a right-wing conspiracy? ;)

    It is very likely that this is how it will go down. I suspect the bulk of the arguments against this actually happening will be knee-jerk responses like "Bush is too stupid to think of that" or "Bush lies about everything so there are no WMDs."
     
  16. macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Interesting article.

    Hey 'Rat, have you ever read anything by Rene Girard? I just picked up a book called "Violence and the Sacred" my wife recommended. I'll let you know how it is since I have just barely started it. There are some interesting things about the role of violence in our society.
     
  17. macrumors newbie

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    #17
    No, haven't run across his writings.

    I've always had an emotional "thing" against gratuitous violence, whether induced by politics, religion or testosterone. The world is such a wondrous playground, and I've never understood why people want to mess over other people. I always figured the best thing to do with troublemakers was bury them.

    'Rat
     
  18. macrumors regular

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    #18
    Re: Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    never mind.
     
  19. macrumors 68030

    CmdrLaForge

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    Re: Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    You mean this war was about "How can Bush be re-elected instead WMD ?"

    WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS ?
     
  20. macrumors 6502

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    first mandatory rule against terrorism

    Make sure you have the normal people on your side.

    Try to seperate Terrorist thoughts from the normal people. In a way that normal people cannot identify with the terrorists.

    Make pointed, successfull stikes that imprison the terrorists as final result.

    Frequently made mistakes:
    Start a full blown warin foreign countries without quickly archiving a goal.

    Upset normal people with your actions.

    appear to be arrogant, especially against the people you should have as allies.

    Make solo moves without legitimate backing.

    Fight terror with terror spinning up a violence spiral.

    and, most fatal: break laws trying to fight terrorism - and be caught doing so.
     
  21. macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #21
    I'll add one more... using terrorism as an excuse to justify a war of aggression against a sovereign nation, then not being able to back up the reasons you gave.
     
  22. macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #22
    Oh, NOW it's time for the UN to come in? We kick them out, make a mess, then expect them to come in and clean up for us?

    Bush messed up when he kicked the UN out, and refused to work to get UN support for a war against Iraq.

    If I were the UN General Secretary or any other country that Bush snubbed (Germany, France, Russia, even the UK), I'd tell Bush to go "Cowboy up" and take care of it himself.

    Talk about a foreign policy nightmare brought about by the rash and hasty actions of arrogant men who thought they could do no wrong.
     
  23. macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #23
     
  24. macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    ...in addition his decision left 400,000 people unemployed. People who have access to weapons and explosives that can be sold or used. I can see not wanting to keep the upper ranks of the military, but the foot soldiers were not likely to be hard-core Saddam sympathizers.
     
  25. macrumors newbie

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: War in Iraq and Terror

    That would be the war that the US helped start by arming religious fanatics to overthrow the Afghani Government.

    How ironic that it was the US Govt's efforts to give the USSR it's own Vietnam, that indirectly led to the formation of the Taliban, who gave help and a safe base to Al Queda, who then bombed the Twin Towers.

    Talk about the chickens coming home to roost.
     

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