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dabigkahuna

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For the record, there are a few apologists who signed non disclosure agreements in order to get their hands on test units ahead of paying customers.

Nope. Oh, I've been (falsely) called an apologist, but ignore my treg membership. There are plenty of other people tho were accepted and quite regularly criticized WT. In fact, there are a number of them who regularly complained about any defense I provided! Oh, they didn't accept those who made wild accusations. It would have been stupid to do so as they didn't show much common sense. But those that were accepted were not apologists. Oh, and every one of them IS a paying customer themselves.

But I don't generally think they are always the most objective commentators on this unfortunate TextBlade situation.

I'm pretty sure you could say that about pretty much any group because it is just easy to find something to complain about in any group - legitimate or not.

But they are doing the job of finding problems and reporting them as well as making suggestions for the future. As a result, the device will be much better when it ships as well as when they make future firmware updates. The one we just got last night is really nice for customization, for example, and getting rid of some awkward finger combos.

You might consider that even those who kept saying in the past to just ship the thing, after testing it, they've been quite consistent about saying they can see now that it wasn't ready. You can assume they suddenly became apologists after getting the device, but isn't that just a convenient way of ignoring anyone who you don't agree with?
 

bobdobalina

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2010
489
684
Oh, and every one of them IS a paying customer themselves.

You are confused about your relationship with WayTools. You don't own the device you paid for until they release you from your contract. Here is a quote from the document you signed:

Details of TREG contract said:
During the TREG test period, you agree not to sell, loan, give or otherwise transfer possession of these materials to any other person or entity. You further agree not to show these materials to any persons who may have a relationship with competing commercial interests. In addition, during TREG, you agree to return any materials to us upon our request.

From: https://www.reddit.com/r/textblade/comments/45r0c5/wt_pointed_to_an_iosonly_link_to_the_treg/

So, yes, you paid for a TextBlade. But you are currently in possession of a beta-testing unit that you are contractually obligated to return at the whim of the company. So "customer" might be a strong term in this case.
 
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dabigkahuna

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You are confused about your relationship with WayTools.

You aren't applying basic logic. You made an issue about paying customers as opposed to those who got a TB. I pointed out we paying customers as well. Now you try to argue the device really isn't ours. So, tell me, how does that change the fact that we are paying customers?

You can't claim it is because we don't officially own it yet because those who referred to as paying customers don't have one they own yet either. :D
 

redshifted

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Oct 10, 2014
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You aren't applying basic logic. You made an issue about paying customers as opposed to those who got a TB. I pointed out we paying customers as well. Now you try to argue the device really isn't ours. So, tell me, how does that change the fact that we are paying customers?

You can't claim it is because we don't officially own it yet because those who referred to as paying customers don't have one they own yet either. :D

dabigkahuna,

Thanks again for your efforts as a TREG tester and keeping us updated here on MacRumors. I also noticed your recent efforts on the WT forum pushing WT to firm-up their shipping timeline.

My preorder "ship date" has slipped to Jun-Jul but at least it seems like it will actually show up in the next few months. Everything I've read tells me that this is a surprisingly complicated blend of hardware and software and WT is doing their best to get this keyboard into our hands.

Folks either need to relax or just cancel their orders. If it's a great keyboard, you can always reorder. If it's the big rip-off that some folks insist WT is up to, then just cancel and get your refund and walk away knowing you were right. The drama about this is so over the top.
 
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dabigkahuna

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Aug 3, 2010
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Thanks again for your efforts as a TREG tester and keeping us updated here on MacRumors. I also noticed your recent efforts on the WT forum pushing WT to firm-up their shipping timeline.

Thanks. I figure, being lucky enough to be selected to test, I owe it to others to provide as much feedback as possible, as well as to work with it as much as I can to provide feedback to WT.

It is frustrating that it still isn't shipping. I didn't expect it to take this long after TREG first started shipping. My theory is still that the holdup is the present manufacturing process, but that is the other frustrating thing - it's a lot of guesswork until WT provides more information and my efforts to get them to do so hasn't worked so far!

While I wish we'd get a shipping announcement, I'm not one to want them to ship no matter what - especially when I don't know what problems they are having. But I don't think there is a good reason they can't give us a MUCH better idea of what is going on.

I can report that we got new firmware a couple days ago and it really improves on customization even though that was already good. Before, some things couldn't be customized. For example, the number pad lock layer used the right blade quite nicely and you could edit the main layer of that if you wanted to rearrange some things. But the green layer (where you press the space bar and another key - very easy) could not be edited. And none of the keys on the left blade could be either on either layer. Now you can.

So, for example, I've taken the four main math symbols and put them on the green layer right under the home key fingers. And I, at least for now, took the left side and put in the various media keys. While there is a media layer, it isn't lockable so you need one had to hold down the chord for it and the other hand for the media commands. But number pad is lockable so I can lock it and, with one finger, reach out and do any media command.
[doublepost=1466226364][/doublepost]On the issue of customization, let's look at an example. First, the included layout for a number pad:
IMG_4788.jpg

The top section is the main layer once you turn on the lock to get here. As you can see, you can just hit any number in a somewhat traditional keypad, plus the four math operators and the decimal key, all with one hand. There is nothing, other than shift and tab, on the left side and, until now, you couldn't edit that side.

The second section is the default green layer (hold down the space bar and the key you want). Again, a fair number of unused keys at the top and some duplication as well. For example, the "*" and "/" keys are on both layers on the right. And the "+" and "-" keys are also duplicated, though on different sides.

Oh, until now I don't think there was any access to the green layer on the left set of keys in number pad lock mode.

Now, some may like those positions of symbols on the green layer. After all, they are in the same place as on the main keyboard green layer. But everyone can change them to suit their needs.

Next I'll show my customization (at least what it is for now).
[doublepost=1466227369][/doublepost]My number pad lock version:
IMG_4789.jpg


Let's focus on the numbers and related things first. The number pad is almost the same. I wanted to keep all the regular number positions across the top for those moments when I'm not normally typing, but just need to reach out to enter a number or two. So it can be useful to still have number keys that, on the hardware, actually show the numbers. This means the number 6 actually shows up twice. It also means I moved the zero up to the top. I actually find I hit the zero in that position better anyway (I'm NOT an experienced number pad user!). This also let me put the equal sign where the zero used to be. All the math symbols have been moved so that means I have two unused keys, for now, on that side.

Now the other math stuff is put on the green layer. It really is so easy to type accessing that layer. Should take no time at all to adjust to it. The only part of this I'm pretty sure I'll keep this way is the four math operators and the comma.

It seems logical and easy to remember to have comma and the period on the same key, but different layers. The four math operators are directly under the four home key fingers - just hit them while the thumb hits the space. Very logical and easy to remember where they are.

For now I've put various, mostly math, related symbols across the top and parenthesis and brackets across the bottom. I suspect I don't need all that. Oh, if working on a spreadsheet, I'll use parenthesis, but I don't recall ever using the brackets. And I'll use dollar signs, percent signs, and maybe a number sign (though I think that is probably more likely to just be for normal text stuff rather than spreadsheets).

This frees up the left side for my media experimentation. For now the main and green layer do pretty much the same thing except the main layer has to leave room for the row of numbers.

So we have volume up, down and mute. Play, fast forward, rewind, next or previous track, eject. The F15 and F14 are the function keys on my Mac that brighten or dim the screen. The two icons near the left side are for copying the whole screen or to copy part of it. I don't particularly feel this is where I'll keep them though.
 
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dabigkahuna

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Aug 3, 2010
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One more thing, there are so many ways of looking at the best solution for individuals. For example, remember those two empty spots on the right of the number pad? Well, I could use one for "+" and then, if you press the spacebar too, have it give "-". The other empty spot could be for "*" and "/". Again, easy to remember with the "positive" math being on the main layer and the negative on the green layer. Same approach could be done with things like parenthesis - open parenthesis on main layer and same key with space bar for closed.

Or media keys - fast forward on main layer and rewind on green. Likewise with previous and next track, up and down volume, take a full screen shot or partial screenshoot, etc. There is also an edit lock layer which could be done the same way.

Or, depending on what default things you are willing to give up or move, you could take the edit layer with things like move cursor up or down, right or left, etc, on the main layer and put the similar looking media commands on the same keys, but with the green layer.

Best of all, you can experiment with this as slowly as you'd like.
 
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dabigkahuna

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I polished up my customization of the number lock layer:
IMG_4790.jpg

The changes are all on the left side with the media controls I added. Main layer has keys for brighten screen, rewind, volume up, fast forward, play and mute below the volume. On the green layer are the keys to dim the screen, previous track, volume down, next track, eject.

Note that there is some logic to how these are paired up (such as volume up and down using the same key).

Thus, with one lock position, I have all my number/math stuff and all my media stuff so I can do anything with one finger (or one finger plus the thumb on the space bar).

But it's actually better because of how WT set things up. Because now you can have it in number lock mode, but still hit a key chord on the left side to access all the editing key commands on the right - and they are extensive. Consider:

Up or down by line. Left and right by character or by word. Beginning and end of line. Forward or back by paragraph. Page up and down. Beginning and end of document. Cut, copy, paste. All, undo, redo. And a search key with other keys to find next or previous match.

So really the only thing I can't do in this number lock layout are the letters and a few symbols that I normally don't use anyway.

There is also an edit lock mode if that's all you are going to use at some points. Though one could customize that as well.
 
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henry2

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2010
207
5
My order was on the 23rd of April of this year and they keep saying June July time frame frame for my order on the system they have in place
 

dabigkahuna

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My order was on the 23rd of April of this year and they keep saying June July time frame frame for my order on the system they have in place

That's one of the puzzles. We already know they tend to leave projected dates like this until the end of the month or even the beginning of the next before updating the estimates.

But your situation is another puzzle because we don't know how many of the various components of the TB are stocked up (other then test units, they haven't been storing completed units - just the components, ready for final assembly). This is actually a good thing because otherwise every time they've found something they needed to fix in hardware, they'd have to take things apart and reassemble them!

It has been said at some point that they had enough parts for at least most orders up to some point - I don't recall what that date was though. And they might have said at some point they actually have enough for all orders - I can't recall exactly.

The other thing we don't know is, once they decide to go full speed on assembly, how many they can finish in a day. Since we know they said they got more than 10,000 orders the first two days, clearly speed of assembly matters a lot as to when you get yours with so many people ahead of you.

I'm suspect those two days may be the biggest order days, but I also suspect they are in the hundreds of thousands overall.

So, hopefully they can do a LOT in a day so you don't have to wait too long.

Meanwhile, they still seem to be testing production procedures. Seems to be taking a long time - they reported all their hardware fixes were working for the past month after all.

They said they'd try to give us more of an update on Sunday. We'll see. Would be nice if during this time they were actually making a bunch of these to ship out all at once as a surprise. But that isn't what they've been saying so I doubt it.

Right now I doubt they'll make June shipments. It is certainly possible if in the next few days they start serious production and ship out the first ones right away, but I wouldn't put money on it.
 

jeremy3721

macrumors regular
May 29, 2010
131
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I'd put money on it not happening unfortunately. I don't think you'll see them in August either unfortunately.
 

redshifted

Cancelled
Oct 10, 2014
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I'd put money on it not happening unfortunately. I don't think you'll see them in August either unfortunately.

From my order status page...



Boxes! Lotsa Boxes :cool:. I think these represent TREG shipments based on the jpeg title mentioning 05/01. I'm still looking at Jun-Jul from a 03/15 pre-order. Purchases today show a 09/16 delivery :rolleyes:.
 

dabigkahuna

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From my order status
Boxes! Lotsa Boxes :cool:. I think these represent TREG shipments based on the jpeg title mentioning 05/01. I'm still looking at Jun-Jul from a 03/15 pre-order. Purchases today show a 09/16 delivery :rolleyes:.

Never thought about looking at the jpeg info. Not sure it refers to TREG units though - heck, it could be empty boxes just for a photo since we know they need to update the hardware. If it is TREG, it would have to be well after the first round because those were shipped out 3/26. I can't recall the date of the second and third rounds.

I went through all of WayTools post, starting in April, and pulled out all their comments that relate in some way to problems, progress, and potential shipping and put them all into one spot so you can more easily follow the big picture:

https://forum.waytools.com/t/recent-wt-progress-updates-collected-here-for-convenience/2771

Meanwhile, we are hoping WT follows up on their statement Friday that they would try to give more info today. They were on the WT forums for awhile today (they just left), but no update yet. Usually these come late at night - like after 2:00 AM California time. Fortunately, since I live in Hawaii, I'm usually still awake.
 

redshifted

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Oct 10, 2014
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Never thought about looking at the jpeg info. Not sure it refers to TREG units though - heck, it could be empty boxes just for a photo since we know they need to update the hardware. If it is TREG, it would have to be well after the first round because those were shipped out 3/26. I can't recall the date of the second and third rounds.

I went through all of WayTools post, starting in April, and pulled out all their comments that relate in some way to problems, progress, and potential shipping and put them all into one spot so you can more easily follow the big picture:

https://forum.waytools.com/t/recent-wt-progress-updates-collected-here-for-convenience/2771

Meanwhile, we are hoping WT follows up on their statement Friday that they would try to give more info today. They were on the WT forums for awhile today (they just left), but no update yet. Usually these come late at night - like after 2:00 AM California time. Fortunately, since I live in Hawaii, I'm usually still awake.

The link is:

https://d15s316w7sz1q6.cloudfront.n...05-01/2-38-49/p4VwDO2fqipmm3muvpgxEQ/----.jpg

"/packages shipped/2016-05-01/" sticks out.

I don't have a problem with WT shipping someday. As a photographer, I found the jpg title "interesting". I thought it would add a little more data to the folks waiting for their TB shipment.
 

dabigkahuna

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henry2

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2010
207
5
If does not come by the end of July then we may be talking about a case action suit for them
It not about the money it about them on there website saying this is the time you will have it in your hands

If there major problems with products they to stop taking orders and refund everyone money and give one a discount code for 50 percent off when. They Do have them in stock for shipment
 

henry2

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2010
207
5
You can get a refund any time you want.
It not about the refund it about them offering a product they have not Deliver on that my problem something should take a couple of months at the Most .
So at the end of July if it has not show up at my door then it time maybe start talking to lawyers on this on
[doublepost=1467101516][/doublepost]It about that take a person money then say well it going to be three months and keeping told where working on the problem then six months later they keeping saying where working out problems then a year they say where working on the problem.
There should be no problems with them because they should have it ready to go the moment that they showed it off at the show in Vegas

They where not ready and it shows .i have a custom knife made by Jim Carrilo he told me a email it could be up to a year before I saw the knife and he was right .so it about them keeping people in the loop plus it shows in there product development they where not really ready to bring it to market in a timely manner
 

redshifted

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Oct 10, 2014
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WayTools has posted a new update late last night at:

https://forum.waytools.com/t/tech-update-29-june/2782

The bad news is that it looks like some hardware adjustments - which are good - will probably push shipping into August.

Well August now - Drat!!!
Those cracked keys look bad so hopefully they'll get this fixed fast.

Sharpen up the pitchforks, light the torches, cry havoc and let slip the dogs of law!!!
Or - just get your refund now, lower your stroke risk and be a little happier.
It is obvious that riding the WayTools release rollercoaster is not for the faint of heart (or wallet).
 

henry2

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2010
207
5
You have heard of Elio motors they kept saying late 2016 now it 2017 before they can start building cars .bit they keep taking people money for them .
Me it been a year and you have not worked out the problems yet then You need to stop taking people money and refund back to them and work out the problems that they are having
That allways wait a year before getting the aftermarket items to see there problems have been worked out
 

redshifted

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Oct 10, 2014
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You have heard of Elio motors they kept saying late 2016 now it 2017 before they can start building cars .bit they keep taking people money for them .
Me it been a year and you have not worked out the problems yet then You need to stop taking people money and refund back to them and work out the problems that they are having
That allways wait a year before getting the aftermarket items to see there problems have been worked out

I share your frustration with WayTools.

But, it's not a car - it's just a $99 iOS peripheral keyboard.
Get your money back.
They refund your money reliably and quickly.

I wish they had taken deposits instead of full payment - but, here we are.
This doesn't seem to be worth the aggravation to you over something as insignificant as a keyboard.
 
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henry2

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2010
207
5
I share your frustration with WayTools.

But, it's not a car - it's just a $99 iOS peripheral keyboard.
Get your money back.
They refund your money reliably and quickly.

I wish they had taken deposits instead of full payment - but, here we are.
This doesn't seem to be worth the aggravation to you over something as insignificant as a keyboard.

No it not but it is the same basic thing I as you take my money and do not give me what I paid for on timely manner and it becomes point of pride with me

I have one problem like the his before and we would up in court and it cost them about $85 thousand dollars plus my lawyers fees on top of that
[doublepost=1467350401][/doublepost]Plus I have a diff mind set about buying things in life I just that mind set of I pay for something please give it in the time you say it will be delivered in that you posted on the website.
Now they say June July time then they have the end of the month to put into my hands or face the actions that have set in motion by not having a product that is ready for market
 

iMarc845

macrumors member
Jul 3, 2008
99
22
Rockland County, NY
It not about the refund it about them offering a product they have not Deliver on that my problem something should take a couple of months at the Most .
So at the end of July if it has not show up at my door then it time maybe start talking to lawyers on this on

In my opinion, people like you are a large part of what stifles innovation. You are SO willing to start a lawsuit. And the ONLY people that profit from a Class Action suit are the lawyers on both sides. They rake in a ton of fees and no-one else gets anything useful.

The only good thing is that it's unlikely even a slimeball lawyer would take that case. While WayTools have often been far from the ideal example of customer communication, they do provide updates. So any attempt at a suit would surely be deemed frivolous. And since a speedy refund has always been available, there is no basis for even a frivolous lawsuit.

Swallow your self-professed "... matter of pride ..." and either:
  1. Take the offered refund (and perhaps re-order after TextBlades ship to the general public)
  2. Wait like the rest of us for a product that while it is very late, is very complicated.
Your comment about "... a couple of months at the Most." does indicate you are not aware of how complex the product is. If you think you can deliver an acceptable product faster than Waytools, have at it! But I'd suggest you watch out about infringing on any of their patents or you're likely to hear from those lawyers of which you speak.

Please understand: I am a paid customer. I placed my first TextBlade order on February 01, 2015. (I actually have two orders.) I am as frustrated as anyone with the delays in general release. But I do believe that Waytools ARE trying their very best to put out a superior product. Most of us have already heard this kind of bluster on the Waytools Forum. And speaking purely for myself, I am tired of it. You're very likely a nice person with good intentions but please "... Take a chill pill." Thanks!

BTW: I'm guessing that you're under the age of twenty which may explain your impatience.
 

henry2

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2010
207
5
In my opinion, people like you are a large part of what stifles innovation. You are SO willing to start a lawsuit. And the ONLY people that profit from a Class Action suit are the lawyers on both sides. They rake in a ton of fees and no-one else gets anything useful.

The only good thing is that it's unlikely even a slimeball lawyer would take that case. While WayTools have often been far from the ideal example of customer communication, they do provide updates. So any attempt at a suit would surely be deemed frivolous. And since a speedy refund has always been available, there is no basis for even a frivolous lawsuit.

Swallow your self-professed "... matter of pride ..." and either:
  1. Take the offered refund (and perhaps re-order after TextBlades ship to the general public)
  2. Wait like the rest of us for a product that while it is very late, is very complicated.
Your comment about "... a couple of months at the Most." does indicate you are not aware of how complex the product is. If you think you can deliver an acceptable product faster than Waytools, have at it! But I'd suggest you watch out about infringing on any of their patents or you're likely to hear from those lawyers of which you speak.

Please understand: I am a paid customer. I placed my first TextBlade order on February 01, 2015. (I actually have two orders.) I am as frustrated as anyone with the delays in general release. But I do believe that Waytools ARE trying their very best to put out a superior product. Most of us have already heard this kind of bluster on the Waytools Forum. And speaking purely for myself, I am tired of it. You're very likely a nice person with good intentions but please "... Take a chill pill." Thanks!

BTW: I'm guessing that you're under the age of twenty which may explain your impatience.
I'm will as you take a chill but at this time and place my whole outlook on ls because my fathers and mother allways told this statement about taking a person money for a product and not delivering it on the the SoCalled time frame.
We had a herd of livestock that was on primary source of income inthe family so as a product that had to market we learned the vulnerability of the market place of time and money when said you going to be there on time it meant be there on time not a month later a year late
That why I waited a whole year before I placed a order to let them sort out the SoCalled teething problems with me technology that that inducing to the public
But their web site says when you placed a order and it will b deliver on this time I expect it to be delivered on that time not a year later or not three years later
 
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