We are losing our rights!!!

Discussion in 'Community' started by MacBandit, Dec 1, 2002.

  1. MacBandit macrumors 604

    MacBandit

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    #1
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58308-2002Nov30.html

    This is exactly what I thought was going to happen.

    This is why you never back down or give an inch to anyone when it comes to your rights and freedoms. As I have said before there is no such thing as temporarily giving up freedom for added protection. Once the government has it they will do with it as they wish and have no reason to surrender the power over you.
     
  2. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #2
    Damn, how could you even try to justify this as a good idea at the start, there is too much historical evidence that this only leads to problems. And its not like evidence has ever been an issue - so many times we've heard about the FBI or police getting info and not moving on it, and it only coming out after the fact. Idiots.
     
  3. e-coli macrumors 68000

    e-coli

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    #3
    i love this comment. and how exactly are the american people going to know what the executive branch is doing seeing as how they have mangaed to basically nullify of the system of checks and balances. they've manged to cut the american people out of the loop almost entirely.

    sort of like "Easing clean air restrictions on Power and Chemical plants will actually make the environment better, not worse.

    :rolleyes:
     
  4. Gus macrumors 65816

    Gus

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    #4
    I wrote about this in a previous thread before this was actually made into a law. This is the most horrific abuse of presidential power I have ever been witness to. I have been a supporter of Bush through all of this, but I will not support a person or party when it is clear that they are purposely side-stepping the Bill of Rights. I agree with e-coli on this one-the American people are being completely left out of this decision, and the argument will alwayd be that the President is privy to information that we are not and that he has to make these decisions. Our whole system was designed to avoid this very thing. Might as well go back to having a king again.

    Gus
     
  5. G4scott macrumors 68020

    G4scott

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    Austin, TX
    #5
    This can be both good and bad, depending on your point of view and what you have to hide from the government.

    We need to be able to prosecute idiots like Lindh and Reid without the stupidity of today's court system. A cold blooded murderer is easily able to get off if he has a good lawyer. These days, it doesn't matter if you're guilty or not, it matters on how good your lawyer is. The county I live in, Hidalgo County, is notorious for frivolous lawsuits and the such. People come from all over the country just to have their case tried here because they know that they can get away with things more easily.

    This could be bad because it may do bad things to innocent people, but if the government has reason to suspect you of terrorism, then you must be doing something wrong or weird. Besides, if the Government wasn't able to prosecute terrorist suspects, then they would be running around rampantly, hiding under lawyers, fully capable of attacking the US.

    Just imagine that your next door neighbor is really a terrorist, with connections to some odd countries, and some weird habits, such as locking himself in his home, and doing weird things, inviting weird people over, and researching how to fly planes or build bombs. To some, he might seem like any ordinary weird, but if the government has reasonable cause to name him as a terrorist suspect, wouldn't it be better to get the guy before something happen, instead of after? Even if he wasn't a terrorist, and he just lived a weird lifestyle, don't you think it'd be in the best interests of the government to check and see if he really is a terrorist suspect? Americans these days are too spoiled. They don't realize some of the things it takes to keep the country safe.

    I do think that giving the president supreme power to classify someone as an enemy combatant is a little overboard, but hopefully the power of who makes this decision will be broadened.
     
  6. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    San Diego, CA
    #6
    Here's the thing: who decides which countries are "odd" and which habits/things are "weird"?

    One of the things that makes the US great is our personal freedoms to do things which aren't necessarily normal, but are perfectly legal. Take away our freedom to be ourselves and we've lost a lot of what our forefathers fought so hard for.

    This kind of thing takes us right back to McCarthyism and the Communist witchhunts of the 30s/40s. We're not very far from another "House Un-American Committee" here. Terrorism is a great danger to the world today, but as soon as America stops being "America" the terrorists have won.
     
  7. MacBandit thread starter macrumors 604

    MacBandit

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    #7
    Amen!!!! You are so right the McCarthyism withhunts are upon us.

    This is a scary time people. If you are someone who supports the giving up of rights to protect us against terrorist you need to wake up.
     
  8. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    Jul 9, 2000
    #8
    we are at war and cannot realistically expect the exact same level of personal privacy

    i hope this war ends soon and we can go back to better freedoms

    this was the plan of al qaeda...to make us be more restrictive, less freedom, and in fear

    my cousin was in the subway under the world trade center...my wife lived in the neighborhood where most of the firemen who died lived...and others i know lost loved ones

    for a small handful of terrorists...perhaps as few as 2,000 worldwide, they have undeniably dealt us a blow
     
  9. MacBandit thread starter macrumors 604

    MacBandit

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    #9

    How can you win a war with terrorist? There will always be more. The more you fight them the more you piss them off helping them recruit more people.

    The point is we will never have our rights back if we give them up for this.

    We can not live in fear. If we live and fear and give up our rights they have won.
     
  10. vniow macrumors G4

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    #10
    The problem that we have with this whole 'war on terrorism' thingie is that we're not fighting a specific country like past wars, we're fighting a state of mind and that's where we're confused.
    Terrorism is fanatacism, a lesser example of that is Apple-worshipping.
    While thinking that one brand of computer is better than the other is one thing, you blow up that state of mind up to foriegn policies and especially religion, you have what what some people call a terrorist.
     
  11. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #11
    Heretic!!! Your slander of the great Apple shall bring about punishment both swift and terrible. And if I have to blow myself up, killing hundreds of people in the process, to make you see that then so be it! ;)
     
  12. vniow macrumors G4

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    I accidentally my whole location.
    #12
    Now look here Mr. Rower_CPU.
    You are part of what we call the 'axis of evil' and we should have blowed you up a long time ago, but since we didn't, I'm going to have to order my troops to nuclearfy you and your terroristic buddies.
     
  13. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #13
    HA!!! The all-powerful Jobs will accept me into heaven with open arms and lead me to my 70 dual 1.25 GHz PowerMacs with dual 23" Cinema HD displays for my martyrous act.

    DIE INFIDEL!!!
     
  14. dabirdwell macrumors 6502

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    Oklahoma
    #14
    Sweetheart you are so right, I am posting this from the downstairs home computer of the director of FEMA, and, as I am part of the family (not so much in ideology) I know the administration's side of the story. The fact is that we continue to treat symptoms of social ills instead of treating the root causes. This could include our domestic social programs which treat what are actually failures in the education and health care systems, as well as foreign policy problems. The real difference between what we consider modern (semi)secular society and undeveloped society is democracy...Kant expressed that democracies tend toward peace; dictatorships tend towards war; and the fact remains that no two domocracies have ever gone to war. (Understand democracy to mean states ruled by the people)

    Until we concede to remove all pretense of subjugative morality from our perspective of the world's problems we will never realize that the world's problems, all of them, are natively our own.
     
  15. dabirdwell macrumors 6502

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    Oklahoma
    #15
    Sorry for the sweetheart thing.

    I have been drinking just a little.

    But if you don't mind too much I won't edit it, as I often feel that way about my fellow humanity.;)
     
  16. vniow macrumors G4

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  17. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #17
    All I have to say is, if we give up our rights to privacy and our general rights as American citizens (and as human beings), we let the terrorists win. They want to take away our right to live by forcing their views on us (something they accuse us of). And worse, making us so paranoid we forget the early American credo - "Give me Liberty, or give me death". Sacrificing our freedoms in the name of security turns us into a police state, and gives the terrorists exactly what they want. For us to be afraid.

    I don't know about you, but I don't just live for for freedom... I'd die for it. Literally.

    I like my rights to choose, thank you very much.
     
  18. etoiles macrumors 6502a

    etoiles

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    #18
    what if the government behaves a little 'weird' ? I mean, this is just other people at work, not some supreme wise beings. Who is going to check on them ?

    And terrorism is such an abused term. A few years ago, communism was the source of all evil, now it is terrorism. It is just a convenient way to describe a one-size-fits-all enemy and to instore exceptional measures no questions asked . Today, most people don't really care who is behind 'those last attacks (whatever happens in the world)', it is just a bunch of terrorists, we are at war against them, hopefully our government will kill them all, eventually. Right ? Well, if we don't take the time to really understand who hates us that much, we will never find out why and we can't even hope that there is going to be an end to the tragedy of blind violence (no, they are not going to catch them all)... the only thing that will happen, is that surveilance and 'security' will be steadily increased in order to prevent anybody from doing anything wrong, whatever that will be at that point.

    I am not sure the governent realizes what it takes to make this country safe (or maybe it is just too spoiled).
     
  19. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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    Bakersfield, CA
    #19
    The US Government's purpose is to protect our God Given Rights. Not to protect itself. Read the Constitution a few times. It is utterly unconstitutional to "proactivly" enforce laws.

    Yes, the govenment needs to be able to prosecute accused terrorists, but that isn't what their doing. They are bypassing the prosecution, and proceding directly to jail.

    Keeping this country save, primarily means to keep our rights safe. Without our rights, America isn't America, and you've already lost the war.
     
  20. Choppaface macrumors 65816

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    SFBA
    #20
    just beacause an individual might think that they're in the clear doesn't mean that the gov couldn't find something that it would like to prosecute them for.... those that claim that they have nothing to hide might be very surprised if some disgruntled cop or bureaucrat gets hold of their file. the government doesn't appear to make any admission of innaccuracy or uncertainty... it just seems that the gov is a bit blinded with self confidence at times as these sorts of things pop up
     
  21. AssassinOfGates macrumors 6502

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    #21
    Those who would give up some of their liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserves neither liberty nor safety.

    Sadly I fear that people will not heed Franklin's warning and will allow this attck on our civil liberties. Its people like these who screw us in the longrun. Take a look at income taxes. They were supposed to be done away with after WW][, yet I still pay them. This usage of "the war on terrorism" is allowing the government to do more than it should be able to, and people are still buying into it. Heck, people still belive that Saddam is partly responsible for sep. 11th, and that justifies an attack on Iraq. If this was remotely true, then wouldn't the CIA have found a link by now.

    The ignorance is our downfall, as the individual becomes weaker and weaker.
     
  22. BenderBot1138 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2002
    #22
    Rights...

    Not to upset very patriot fellow-americans here at all, I want to raise a serious concern.

    The American Political system is by far not perfect. In fact there is a much safer for the people system of government in the form of Commonwealth systems. Many of our american politicians regularly point out that Parliamentary systems have very good benefits.

    In a impartial and non partisan way, I point out that George Bush is the nearest thing in American Politics to a dictator that the United States has ever seen. This is not to say he is yet a dictator, but just that he's the worst of all.

    I'm sure he and his party feel very satisfied about their management of the electoral process, but I would remind those who would attack such statements against abuse of power that it was interference with the elector system in a vast manner.

    Here's the most important point that patriotic americans need to bear in mind: The US political system is built on the EXACT same political foundation and philosophies that the Roman Empire, complete with Ceasar and Caligula's, was built.

    It is a very short jaunt from a nice peaceful country in which partriotic americans can claim to be the greatest country with the greatest freedoms on earth, to an absolute dictatorship. The very freedoms that George Bush is employing in an effort to put a hurt on Middle Eastern countries, and influence other free nations to move ahead without caution and respect for process, are the very things that made Atilla the Hun, Stalin, the ceasars, and Adolf Hitler dangerous.

    Adolf Hitler lived in a democracy very similar to the American System of today. He took power by claiming it was necessary to wage war on Germanies enemies within and without.

    George Bush claims that war must be waged on certain groups within and without of America. He is the leader of a government system that is nearly identical to the political systems that produced very dangerous men in our long human history.

    I for one, would like someone to put a harness on President Bush. If someone within the US doesn't do this, then the world in all likelyhood will. For those who think our United States of America has the most powerful military machine around, and that we are the one and only SuperPower, think twice and long and hard about such a foolish position. At anytime the Commonwealth of Countries could with great ease put the United States back to the stoneage. It's combined military might is approximately 10 times that of every US asset.

    Freedom is not an excuse to wage war. Decrying the word "FREEDOM" simply is not enough if it robs us of our humanity, and another country of its freedoms to feel safe from threat of violence of the kind George Bush is threatening.

    Don't feel insulted, or politically upset at the above, it is only my opinion, but certainly I would like to see President Bush exercise more restraint and quit isolating his thinking from the growing world opinion against his behavior.
     
  23. fatalerror101 macrumors newbie

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    Oct 8, 2002
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    San Jose
    #23
    Big Brother

    1984 is upon us-

    "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. Winston Smith, his chin nuzzled into his breast in an effort to escape the vile wind, slipped quickly through the glass doors of Victory Mansions, though not quickly enough to prevent a swirl of gritty dust from entering along with him.
    The hallway smelt of boiled cabbage and old rag mats. At one end of it a coloured poster, too large for indoor display, had been tacked to the wall. It depicted simply an enormous face, more than a metre wide: the face of a man of about forty-five, with a heavy black moustache and ruggedly handsome features. Winston made for the stairs. It was no use trying the lift. Even at the best of times it was seldom working, and at present the electric current was cut off during daylight hours. It was part of the economy drive in preparation for Hate Week. The flat was seven flights up, and Winston, who was thirty-nine and had a varicose ulcer above his right ankle, went slowly, resting several times on the way. On each landing, opposite the lift-shaft, the poster with the enormous face gazed from the wall. It was one of those pictures which are so contrived that the eyes follow you about when you move. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU, the caption beneath it ran.
    Inside the flat a fruity voice was reading out a list of figures which had something to do with the production of pig-iron. The voice came from an oblong metal plaque like a dulled mirror which formed part of the surface of the right-hand wall. Winston turned a switch and the voice sank somewhat, though the words were still distinguishable. The instrument (the telescreen, it was called) could be dimmed, but there was no way of shutting it off completely. He moved over to the window: a smallish, frail figure, the meagreness of his body merely emphasized by the blue overalls which were the uniform of the party. His hair was very fair, his face naturally sanguine, his skin roughened by coarse soap and blunt razor blades and the cold of the winter that had just ended.
    Outside, even through the shut window-pane, the world looked cold. Down in the street little eddies of wind were whirling dust and torn paper into spirals, and though the sun was shining and the sky a harsh blue, there seemed to be no colour in anything, except the posters that were plastered everywhere. The blackmoustachio'd face gazed down from every commanding corner. There was one on the house-front immediately opposite. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU, the caption said, while the dark eyes looked deep into Winston's own. Down at streetlevel another poster, torn at one corner, flapped fitfully in the wind, alternately covering and uncovering the single word INGSOC. In the far distance a helicopter skimmed down between the roofs, hovered for an instant like a bluebottle, and darted away again with a curving flight. It was the police patrol, snooping into people's windows. The patrols did not matter, however. Only the Thought Police mattered"

    George Orwell 1984-
    you can find the rest here
    http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/1/s.

    PowerBook G4 1ghz
     
  24. BenderBot1138 macrumors 6502

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  25. Nipsy macrumors 65816

    Nipsy

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    #25
    I miss the Cold War...

    Our spies shot their spies and vice versa. Notice that the players were in the 'business'...

    Nowadays, with all the disclosure everyone thinks they want, we can't do the dirty work quietly anymore, and so everyone has to sacrifice their constitutional freedoms for the greater good.

    If this had been the 60s/70s, Osama would have been quietly silenced before he garnered so much attention, Saddam would likely have disappeared, Fidel would survive though!

    Nowadays, we would be condemned as a country for an assasination, even though it could save thousands (if not millions). Instead, we must all suffer the increased percentage of life devoted to security...whoopee.

    And remember folks, we never just ran around picking people off for fun. You had to be a pretty noticable evil to get removed back then...
     

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