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mac666er

macrumors regular
Feb 7, 2008
240
185
San Francisco, CA
I also read quite extensively and enjoy the process of learning itself.

I find that my reading mood changes depending on what I want to learn. So I buy books in advance and usually several around a similar topic and then just read them one after the other.

I read Animal Farm at school (high school I think) and then later again just for pleasure. The second time I read it, I read it along with a Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess and 1984 by George Orwell as well.

Of course they are excellent books, and they should be required reading. But I just shook my head throughout most of them. Not at the authors obviously, they are beyond brilliant. But at reality. It is just so... depressing :p Somehow some passages in most books get burned into my memory. And in these particular cases they are all just sad memories.

They are sad because I could relate to a ver particular and vivid part of reality. That it is really what makes it sad. In 1984, the fact that Oceania keeps changing official history records to the point that no one knows what in the world is going on, geographically and who their enemy is, is just so true. Similar to how in 1984 and Clockwork Orange eventually characters are broken to the very core. And finally, the quote that really strung a very deep chord in me is how the pigs said that they were more equal than other animals :p Superbly written, but in more than one country I have lived in, it really is like that...

Since Napoleon was mentioned, I recommend the Campaigns of Napoleon by Chandler. Which is by no means an easy read, so you will preferably need an atlas along with it: A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars by Esposito is an excellent one.

I read these when I was reading several books on Caesar (one by Meier and another one by Dodge) and Alexander the Great (Alexander of Macedon 356-323 B.C.: A Historical Biography by Green). You can see that I was into military history at the time.

All these books focus on the military side and try to be as factual as possible. I dislike fiction in general, especially for the sake of entertainment at the expense of historical accuracy. (I especially hate movies "based on true events").

I enjoyed them thoroughly as they were not that militarily technical (Napoleon started in artillery and the cannon technicalities can be daunting) But they are approachable enough for anyone with a University degree.

I truly enjoyed some passages when these characters where under pressure and just made history by being creative: Alexander is of course remembered for being merely a boy when he inherited his kingdom. and when he won a couple of battles where he was outnumbered 10 to 1 and the enemy had elephants and he did not (Darius defeat). He displayed creativity many times. The first time, in what is now Greece, he fought guerrillas that outnumbered him, I believe 3 to 1 or more. He went after them and he just ordered his army to form something similar to turtles (as in the shields up and to the sides, and show the spears and wave them through the openings). Guerrillas had never seen this and ran scared... So he won without a single sword being drawn. :)

As for Napoleon, when in Egypt, he was fighting horse riders in the desert and they had known to always encircle their enemy and kill them that way. Napoleon had horses but came from Europe in which the war was fought by forming lines and advance toward each other (in charges), with cannons for support. Faced with this conundrum, he told everyone to form 4 lines and connect them in a square, with the cannons on each corner. This way he killed most of the riders (as they had never seen this and won. :)

I found many examples like these throughout these books and recommend them heartily if you are ever curious about these characters and why they are called great (even if you disagree with how violent they were, which they were!)
 
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bradl

macrumors 603
Jun 16, 2008
5,926
17,403
Just ordered these, as I missed making it to Powell's City of Books in Portland, Oregon a year ago to attend his booksigning:

18170143.jpg


51710bsPaUL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


His interview on London Easy, where he's talking about his career as an astronaut, going blind in space, and debating covering Space Oddity is absolutely fascinating.

BL.
 
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pachyderm

macrumors G3
Jan 12, 2008
9,974
4,897
Smyrna, TN
I also read quite extensively and enjoy the process of learning itself.

I find that my reading mood changes depending on what I want to learn. So I buy books in advance and usually several around a similar topic and then just read them one after the other.

I read Animal Farm at school (high school I think) and then later again just for pleasure. The second time I read it, I read it along with a Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess and 1984 by George Orwell as well.

Of course they are excellent books, and they should be required reading. But I just shook my head throughout most of them. Not at the authors obviously, they are beyond brilliant. But at reality. It is just so... depressing :p Somehow some passages in most books get burned into my memory. And in these particular cases they are all just sad memories.

They are sad because I could relate to a ver particular and vivid part of reality. That it is really what makes it sad. In 1984, the fact that Oceania keeps changing official history records to the point that no one knows what in the world is going on, geographically and who their enemy is, is just so true. Similar to how in 1984 and Clockwork Orange eventually characters are broken to the very core. And finally, the quote that really strung a very deep chord in me is how the pigs said that they were more equal than other animals :p Superbly written, but in more than one country I have lived in, it really is like that...

Since Napoleon was mentioned, I recommend the Campaigns of Napoleon by Chandler. Which is by no means an easy read, so you will preferably need an atlas along with it: A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars by Esposito is an excellent one.

I read these when I was reading several books on Caesar (one by Meier and another one by Dodge) and Alexander the Great (Alexander of Macedon 356-323 B.C.: A Historical Biography by Green). You can see that I was into military history at the time.

All these books focus on the military side and try to be as factual as possible. I dislike fiction in general, especially for the sake of entertainment at the expense of historical accuracy. (I especially hate movies "based on true events").

I enjoyed them thoroughly as they were not that militarily technical (Napoleon started in artillery and the cannon technicalities can be daunting) But they are approachable enough for anyone with a University degree.

I truly enjoyed some passages when these characters where under pressure and just made history by being creative: Alexander is of course remembered for being merely a boy when he inherited his kingdom. and when he won a couple of battles where he was outnumbered 10 to 1 and the enemy had elephants and he did not (Darius defeat). He displayed creativity many times. The first time, in what is now Greece, he fought guerrillas that outnumbered him, I believe 3 to 1 or more. He went after them and he just ordered his army to form something similar to turtles (as in the shields up and to the sides, and show the spears and wave them through the openings). Guerrillas had never seen this and ran scared... So he won without a single sword being drawn. :)

As for Napoleon, when in Egypt, he was fighting horse riders in the desert and they had known to always encircle their enemy and kill them that way. Napoleon had horses but came from Europe in which the war was fought by forming lines and advance toward each other (in charges), with cannons for support. Faced with this conundrum, he told everyone to form 4 lines and connect them in a square, with the cannons on each corner. This way he killed most of the riders (as they had never seen this and won. :)

I found many examples like these throughout these books and recommend them heartily if you are ever curious about these characters and why they are called great (even if you disagree with how violent they were, which they were!)

cheers!
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.

LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,766
36,273
Catskill Mountains
I’m reading Louisa Lim’s The People’s Republic of Amnesia: Tienanmen Revisited.

Not to get all political here on the eve of the Fourth of July, but for all my carping sometimes about the state of the States, I am grateful to be living in a country where we may well argue about the meanings or lessons of assorted milestones of our history, say the clash of young National Guardsmen and anti-war student protestors at Kent State Univeristy in May of 1970, but at least we are not forbidden to mention or acknowledge that those events actually took place.

Lim’s book is thoroughly researched and includes interviews of witnesses who were in Bejing on June 4th of 1989, as well as information turned up on the suppression of protests at that time in Chengdu and indeed in over 60 other Chinese cities. It’s a fascinating, sad and frightening book; a testament to both the fragility and resilience of memory as events recede into the past, and so into dependence on recollection.

The work was risky for Lim, now back in the USA, and for the people she spoke with even at that time (the work was published in 2014). One wonders if it could even be worked on in today’s ever more info-repressive China, what with word of kidnappings and detentions of of frowned-upon booksellers and dissident writers. I’m grateful for Louisa Lim’s efforts and the bravery of those who agreed to be interviewed for the book.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,984
46,448
In a coffee shop.
I’m reading Louisa Lim’s The People’s Republic of Amnesia: Tienanmen Revisited.

Not to get all political here on the eve of the Fourth of July, but for all my carping sometimes about the state of the States, I am grateful to be living in a country where we may well argue about the meanings or lessons of assorted milestones of our history, say the clash of young National Guardsmen and anti-war student protestors at Kent State Univeristy in May of 1970, but at least we are not forbidden to mention or acknowledge that those events actually took place.

Lim’s book is thoroughly researched and includes interviews of witnesses who were in Bejing on June 4th of 1989, as well as information turned up on the suppression of protests at that time in Chengdu and indeed in over 60 other Chinese cities. It’s a fascinating, sad and frightening book; a testament to both the fragility and resilience of memory as events recede into the past, and so into dependence on recollection.

The work was risky for Lim, now back in the USA, and for the people she spoke with even at that time (the work was published in 2014). One wonders if it could even be worked on in today’s ever more info-repressive China, what with word of kidnappings and detentions of of frowned-upon booksellers and dissident writers. I’m grateful for Louisa Lim’s efforts and the bravery of those who agreed to be interviewed for the book.

Sounds as though it is a fascinating book, and I recall those events with interest.

As someone who specialised - among other areas - in Russian (and Soviet) history, I remember the debates at the time about whether - back to de Tocqueville and the conditions under which one might contemplate reform in an authoritarian or oppressive system ('the most critical moment for bad governments is the one which witnesses their first steps towards reform'), I remember discussions about whether - in seeking to reform a communist system - it was better to start with political reform (as Mikhail Gorbachev did - he was in Beijing when that revolution started, though the oppression only occurred after his departure) - or, as the Chinese did, to focus mainly on attempted economic reform while assuming that the political scaffolding would remain intact.

However, re your first paragraph, @LizKat, I have to say that some of the post 2001 legislation passed by the US Government was very unnerving; the idea that libraries could be asked to pass on their records to state authorities about who borrowed what book, strikes me as antithetical to the very idea of allowing an informed, intelligently questioning, and critically engaged citizenry to exist. Certainly, it made me very uncomfortable that a country that defined itself as a democracy should seek to pass such legislation.
 
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LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
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Catskill Mountains
Sounds as though it is a fascinating book, and I recall those events with interest.

As someone who specialised - among other areas - in Russian (and Soviet) history, I remember the debates at the time about whether - back to de Tocqueville and the conditions under which one might contemplate reform in an authoritarian or oppressive system ('the most critical moment for bad governments is the one which witnesses their first steps towards reform'), I remember discussions about whether - in seeking to reform a communist system - it was better to start with political reform (as Mikhail Gorbachev did - he was in Beijing when that revolution started, though the oppression only occurred after his departure) - or, as the Chinese did, to focus mainly on attempted economic reform while assuming that the political scaffolding would remain intact.

However, re your first paragraph, @LizKat, I have to say that some of the post 2001 legislation passed by the US Government was very unnerving; the idea that libraries could be asked to pass on their records to state authorities about who borrowed what book, strikes me as antithetical to the very idea of allowing an informed, intelligently questioning, and critically engaged citizenry to exist. Certainly, it made me very uncomfortable that a country that defined itself as a democracy should seek to pass such legislation.


Heh, yes, there is a newer twist on the old "FBI in library" graffiti during the Vietnam era... plus now there's still the issue of restrictions on discussing National Security Letters ... but enough of that in this thread... except to appreciate your de Tocqueville quote. One could say it applies cyclically to any nation's governments. I do feel badly for how windows seemed to open for the Russians and now seem to be sliding down again with even economic betterment fading for those without "connections". The infernal desire for a strongman to make things right rises again even while it points to no good end. There things have taken a different path economically from what China has permitted (and tried to correct and control) but of course it remains to be seen how the Chinese respond now to valleys in their economy and perceptions of inequality and corruption combined with increased pressure on dissent.

I haven't quite decided what to make my summer "deep dive" about this year, and the summer's already fleeing the calendar pages. Besides the Lim book I've lately been reading some other nonfiction:

A History of Belarus (Lubov Bazan) - Belarus as you well know, and as I didn't remember, was where Yeltsin had formalized the beginning of the post-Soviet era in signing the treaty that separated Ukraine, Belarus and Russia. This account goes back to the 9th century, moves chronologically, tries not to take sides where there are scholarly disputes.

Farthest Field: An Indian Story (Raghu Karnad) - about India in the WWII era, a reconstruction based on research into what the author's grandfather and grand-uncles had lived through in those times of ambivalence about the war, about being "on the wrong side of history" and about the subsequent need for redemption in the fight for a free India.

The Morning They Came For Us: Dispatches from Syria (Janine di Giovanni). Not for the faint of heart or for anyone who would much rather just label Syria as the departure point of the EU's "refugee problem".

None of those points me to any focus for a deep dive into particular geographic regions or historical timeframes, so this may be a summer I pick an author and read or re-read fiction instead. On tap I've some more Alice Hoffman novels and some of Walter Mosley's Easy Rawlins series. One could say it's to be a scatterbrained summer but that's not to criticize any of the writers!
 
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ThisBougieLife

Suspended
Jan 21, 2016
3,259
10,662
Northern California
I generally have one non-fiction and one fiction book going at any given time and this time is no exception :)

Currently reading:

The End of the Cold War by Robert Service

and

The Cave by Jose Saramago

This is my second Saramago novel; I love his writing style and can't wait to read more of his :)
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,984
46,448
In a coffee shop.
I generally have one non-fiction and one fiction book going at any given time and this time is no exception :)

Currently reading:

The End of the Cold War by Robert Service

and

The Cave by Jose Saramago

This is my second Saramago novel; I love his writing style and can't wait to read more of his :)

I used to read only fact based books, - mostly history and politics - but also some science, occasionally other books, culture, philosophy, but also, books of 'serious', or 'worthy' fiction.

That is, until male friends persuaded me to read TLOTR when I needed a break during postgraduate studies, which introduced me to the pleasures (undeniable) of the world of fantasy literature.

So, @ThisBougieLife, I understand your position, as what I do is broadly similar.

These days, while I still read mostly fact, alongside it, I sometimes have a 'serious' book of fiction, and - even more frequently, another book, read purely for relaxation, that would be classed as 'enjoyable' or escapist, fiction.
 
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JamesMike

macrumors 603
Nov 3, 2014
6,473
6,102
Oregon
No, @Dave Meadows this is one book you will have to buy for yourself.

I am not a fan of James Bond, but I will admit that a few years ago, I did buy a gorgeous hard back book (we had had the same book as children) - beautifully illustrated, that had been written by Ian Fleming. This was Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

I like the movie also starring Dick Van Dyke.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,984
46,448
In a coffee shop.
I like the movie also starring Dick Van Dyke.

As a small kid, it was possibly my favourite movie. Loved it. Just loved it.

Actually, my brother and I were brought to see it on a number of occasions.

Indeed, as kids, we both received - as presents - from my godmother, those small toy cars - exquisitely made, which we had for years, modelled on 'Chitty Chitty Bang Bang'. Among other things, it is left me with an unseemly passion for old, open-topped classic vintage and veteran cars, the origin of which I didn't quite understand for years.
[doublepost=1467675221][/doublepost]In fact, we loved the movie so much that my father found the Ian Fleming book somewhere - complete with illustrations - and bought it for us.

So, to be honest, we saw the movie before we read the book.

And, given the slightly seedy upper class air of some of Ian Fleming's other work, - and elements of his life - Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (on which the movie was loosely, very loosely, based) is an absolutely charming book.
 
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LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,766
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I used to read only fact based books, - mostly history and politics - but also some science, occasionally other books, culture, philosophy, but also, books of 'serious', or 'worthy' fiction.

That is, until male friends persuaded me to read TLOTR when I needed a break during postgraduate studies, which introduced me to the pleasures (undeniable) of the world of fantasy literature.

So, @ThisBougieLife, I understand your position, as what I do is broadly similar.

These days, while I still read mostly fact, alongside it, I sometimes have a 'serious' book of fiction, and - even more frequently, another book, read purely for relaxation, that would be classed as 'enjoyable' or escapist, fiction.

I don't know why I still cannot get into TLOTR. Not for lack of making the effort a few times. In a way I'm surprised because I do read in a lot of genres.

Oh well, I'm off to pick up where I left off near the start of Walter Mosley's Rose Gold. It's a holiday, so time for some lighter fare than the nonfiction tomes on my table at the moment.
 

mac666er

macrumors regular
Feb 7, 2008
240
185
San Francisco, CA
I don't know why I still cannot get into TLOTR. Not for lack of making the effort a few times. In a way I'm surprised because I do read in a lot of genres.

You can always start with the Hobbitt. A much lighter read, it almost fools you into thinking is only a children's book conceived in a week. The lord of the rings will show you then how deep that rabbit hole really is.

Plus, the Lord of the rings really shows very deep issues in human nature. How greed corrupts. How nothing is ever free and how anyone, doesn't matter how small or incapable, can make the world a better place :):apple:
[doublepost=1467676841][/doublepost]This will sound weird in this forum, but bear with me.

I just finished a nice business book called Competing Against Time by George Stalk Jr and Thomas M Hout.

It was written in the 80s and it does read like a text book from a Master's in Business course.

Why do I recommend it? In one of Apple's or Steve Jobs books, I read the executives at Apple always gave a copy to newly hired executives at Apple to give a picture of the company.

After reading it, I can say, even now it is very relevant and I can see how Apple management does adhere to it.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,984
46,448
In a coffee shop.
I don't know why I still cannot get into TLOTR. Not for lack of making the effort a few times. In a way I'm surprised because I do read in a lot of genres.

Oh well, I'm off to pick up where I left off near the start of Walter Mosley's Rose Gold. It's a holiday, so time for some lighter fare than the nonfiction tomes on my table at the moment.

The Hobbit (which I did really like) and TLOTR were the first fantasy works I have ever read.

Now, I am not one of those who reveres TLOTR - it opened my eyes to the existence of the world of fantasy, which I read the way some people watch soap operas (I very rarely watch TV - news, documentaries and, perhaps Star Trek and Foyle's War suffice) - in other words, for relaxation.

Personally, I think TLOTR very creative and epic in parts (the invention of a genre, the world building, the perhaps unnecessarily detailed back story, many of the stock clichés of the fantasy world) very brilliant in parts (loved Bilbo, the hero of The Hobbit, really liked Gandalf - the 'wise mentor' who is a stock character in folk tales, or its offspring, fantasy writing - Professor Dumbledore was a more recent archetype of that character, - adored the Ents, and one or two other scenes - the Mines of Moria, for example, which was spellbinding, and I admired the courage to have a somewhat downbeat ending - the Scouring of the Shire), and very flawed in parts (the hero, whom I dislike, the sidekick, Samwise, whom I loathed, the complete incompetence, and clichéd uselessness in how he chose to portray women, the strangely empty nature of the enemy, the lack of humour).

I have read it from cover to cover three times (I have male friends who can claim double figures), and do not intend to re-visit this experience.

You can always start with the Hobbitt. A much lighter read, it almost fools you into thinking is only a children's book conceived in a week. The lord of the rings will show you then how deep that rabbit hole really is.

Plus, the Lord of the rings really shows very deep issues in human nature. How greed corrupts. How nothing is ever free and how anyone, doesn't matter how small or incapable, can make the world a better place :):apple:

I liked the Hobbit, mainly for the tone - easy and life loving - and the Hero, Bilbo Baggins.

I have written here - and said elsewhere - that in TLOTR, personally, I would have loved to have seen Bilbo allowed to continue the tale; his story arc - facing that quest, with his character - wise, witty, intelligent, humane, with the ability to laugh at himself, cheerfully enjoying the good things that life has to offer, kind yet brave in an underrated and understated way - I would have liked to have seen how he might have handled that quest, which would have left him a sadder and wiser hobbit, but one not stripped of his humanity and humour, and essential decency.

My problem with TLOTR is that, firstly, I didn't like Frodo, - the crucified Christ character just does not appeal to me - and I loathed his relationship with Samwise - which struck me as the most servile expression of the old British class system, reimagined as enjoying servitude - that I have seen in print for some time.

It is hard to love a series when you can't stand the Hero, don't fear the Antagonist (though some of his underlings were brilliantly bad, - Saruman, and Wormtongue were very well sketched), and fume at idiotically how he renders his female characters, - bad writing of female characters continued to dog fantasy for decades, until terrific women started publishing in the field, and some men got to write brilliant and believable female characters (Guy Gabriel Kay, Garth Nix, Scott Lynch to name but three).
 
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mac666er

macrumors regular
Feb 7, 2008
240
185
San Francisco, CA
The Hobbit (which I did really like) and TLOTR were the first fantasy works I have ever read.

Now, I am not one of those who reveres TLOTR - it opened my eyes to the existence of the world of fantasy, which I read the way some people watch soap operas (I very rarely watch TV - news, documentaries and, perhaps Star Trek and Foyle's War suffice) - in other words, for relaxation.

Personally, I think TLOTR very creative and epic in parts (the invention of a genre, the world building, the perhaps unnecessarily detailed back story, many of the stock clichés of the fantasy world) very brilliant in parts (loved Bilbo, the hero of The Hobbit, really liked Gandalf - the 'wise mentor' who is a stock character in folk tales, or its offspring, fantasy writing - Professor Dumbledore was a more recent archetype of that character, - adored the Ents, and one or two other scenes - the Mines of Moria, for example, which was spellbinding, and I admired the courage to have a somewhat downbeat ending - the Scouring of the Shire), and very flawed in parts (the hero, whom I dislike, the sidekick, Samwise, whom I loathed, the complete incompetence, and clichéd uselessness in how he chose to portray women, the strangely empty nature of the enemy, the lack of humour).

I have read it from cover to cover three times (I have male friends who can claim double figures), and do not intend to re-visit this experience.



I liked the Hobbit, mainly for the tone - easy and life loving - and the Hero, Bilbo Baggins.

I have written here - and said elsewhere - that in TLOTR, personally, I would have loved to have seen Bilbo allowed to continue the tale; his story arc - facing that quest, with his character - wise, witty, humane, all to laugh at himself, cheerfully enjoying the good things that life has to offer, kind yet brave in an underrated way - I would have liked to have sen how he might have handles that quest, which would have left him a sadder and wiser hobby, but one not stripped of his humanity and humour, and essential decency.

My problem with TLOTR is that, firstly, I didn't like Frodo, - the crucified Christ character just does not appeal to me - and I loathed his relationship with Samwise - which struck me as the most servile expression of the old British class system, reimagined as enjoying servitude - that I have seen in print for some time.

It is hard to love a series when you can't stand the Hero, don't fear the Antagonist (though some of his underlings were brilliantly bad, - Saruman, and Wormtongue were very well sketched), and fume at idiotically how he renders his female characters, - bad writing of female characters continued to dog fantasy for decades, until terrific women started publishing in the field, and some men got to write brilliant and believable female characters (Guy Gabriel Kay, Garth Nix, Scott Lynch to name but three).

Well, the way I see it is:

Did I read perfection? No, I never have actually, in any genre :eek: but it was very logically consistent, which is very hard to find in fantasy! And when a story is successful, usually a business asks the author to backfill stories that send consistency and surprise build up to their mass graves with a shot in the forehead.

I saw many, many flaws with it. Starting with how he based it on Gaelic fairy tales and a couple of other concepts which I'm not fond of. Yeah, women are weak. I can see you were insulted by how Eowyn was presented :eek: and to an extent humiliated in the story since she is not taken to her full potential. I agree.

Every story is flawed. But he was very polished and got the genre started. Now other authors can build better stories on top of that. But they are really more polishing exercises than true foundation work.

Which by the way, if anyone can recommend superb fantasy or science fiction books I am more than eager to listen. I've read my fair share, and have not found a book that comes close in inventing a new mythology around the story. Arthur C Clarke is my favorite, along with Asimov, but they don't come close to Tolkien. StarWars is a close one, but I wouldn't count it strictly since it is a movie, not a book.

Perhaps the Call of Cthuluh by Lovecraft comes close in making me send shivers down my spine when re-thinking how the world truly works and the protagonists role in it. With the Conan story the Tower of the Elephant by Robert Howard a very close second. I vividly remember experiencing this when they encounter the Balrog and Gandalf semi-explains what it is.
 
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