what has happened to the voice of the gop?

Discussion in 'Community' started by jefhatfield, Aug 20, 2002.

  1. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #1
    in the old days, there used to be lively debate between democrats and republicans

    gop voices such as kissinger, nixon, and gerald ford made for some compelling arguments on both sides

    in comes rush limbaugh fifteen years later with his mix of true issues and his stand up humor...new from the point of a famous college droupout, but not on the mark like the old guard educated republicans

    then, according to george magazine, limbaugh loses half of his market overnight to a talk show sensation far to the right of him...a newcomer who is radio's top voice...dr. laura

    where rush limbaugh had a live and let live attitude towards other lifestyles but didn't believe in preferential treament for those other lifestyles, dr laura seemed to be bent on making america in the image of her

    dr laura's ultra conservative followers are more like a cult hanging on her every word as if she was the messiah...even though she got her start sleeping with the married man who got her into radio...and with tons of pictures splattered over the internet to prove it

    somehow, she is quick to judge and no on calls her on any contradictions she may have

    i believe her extremism truly helped the democrats win in '92 and '96 pushing moderate republicans to the democrat's side

    she also led the way to the moderate, middle of the road reform party which capitalized on the great vacuum the gop left in the middle for reformers and blue dog conservative democrats
     
  2. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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    #2
    I don't see anyone on either side really makeing for some good debates on real issues. I would love to vote for more Libertarians(sp?) in my neck of the woods (even less government than Republicans). Truth be told, I think Jessie Ventura(sp?) had some of the best arguments/debates. Also some very unique ideas for fixing what the Dems & Reps have broken.

    Seeing as I was still pretty young (not even eligable to vote yet) in '92 I don't have the clearist picture of what happened. I can tell you what influenced me. Two major events:

    1) GOP Nat. Convention. Pat Buchanen(sp?)'s speech sounded very much like that of Hitler. I don't remember much, but I do remember stuff like closing the boarders to imagrants, deporting all "non-americans", and other things. After that speech, it took me a long time before I would even consider voting for a Republican.

    2) I know this is going to sound silly, but Clinton's "town hall" discussion on MTV. The GOP completely ignored the younger voters, and were strickly interested in the "influencial" people. This was my perception, maybe incorrect, but that was the way I saw it.

    By the time '96 came along, I still hadn't gotten the stinch of Pat Buchanon out of the air, so there was no I was considering a Republican yet.

    As for who I listen to today, well in ain't the talking heads on tv, nor is it Rush, Dr Laura, Howard Stern, etc. I take in what the press sends out, then research stuff important to me on the internet. I also read, and re-read the Constitution & Declearation if Independence, to figure out what our founding fathers might think.
     
  3. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #3
    the constitution tried to get us out of the hold of the english church, among others, and the writers would roll over in their grave if they knew protestant america was trying to pull over a "vatican" like hold on politics with the christian right

    separation of church and state folks

    if a christian wants to let the world know of jesus the messiah, it is best done from the pulpit, door to door, and on the street, not with billionaire yacht club, wallstreeters professing christianity to get votes for the gop

    wasn't there something in the bible about a camel passing thru the eye of a needle being more possible than a rich man going to heaven?

    the gop needs to work on their main message....small government

    and let the religious entities of america worry about the spiritual side of things

    like colin powell said in his book, god gave us a set of rules to live by, not a legislative agenda...amen to that

    let politics be politics and let religion be religion...my fear is of the former polluting the latter
     
  4. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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  5. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #5
    First, the bible is fiction. It was written by a group of men in an attempt to describe their feeling that there was a supreme being or god. Every civilization has had that same feeling, every civilization has attempted to describe that feeling, and due to regional, language and other differences, the descriptions are all different subtly, but for the most part the same.

    So, any argument based on the bible is fundamentally flawed.

    (note: I'm a Christian)

    GOP's message isn't small goverment Mr. Jefhatfield, the GOP's message is small taxes (on the rich especially) and small goverment regulation of business (i.e. Enron, Worldcom, ImClone, etc.).

    Colin Powell, talk about an underused, yet overrated talent. He's the only conservative I fear politically (what I mean is that I'd consider voting for him). But, he's wrong. God didn't "give" us a set of rules (assuming he's referring to rules set forth in the ten commandments [or any other religion for that matter])

    (Note: I'm Christian, but also Hindu).

    Oh, from the other thread: Oriental describes inanimate objects such as rugs. When used to describe a person, it is derogatory because it connotates that the person is chattle (personal property). You know, like a slave.

    Asian: We are the majority, get used to it.

    Asian: The only group in the good 'ol U.S. of A. still actively discriminated against. (They analyzed getting rid of that statute in California [prop 278 or whatever] and they found that if they did, enrollment of black and hispanic students would drop, caucasion would stay about the same, and asian student rates would increase. That shows that asians are being held out of academic spots so that they can be given to black and hispanic students) Yep, whitey holding down the asians in an attempt to make up for past discrimination to the blacks and hispanics. That's real fair. Why on earth hasn't anyone suggested that they allocate spots to students based on qualifcations, and then cut white (honkey? -- I'm being anti-PC ;) ) students in favor of black and hispanic. Why, because that would ruin white people's track record of scr*wing other races in their own favor.

    Asian: Russians (a huge country), India (about a billion), China (over a billion), Japan (nearing 300 Million), Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, Taiwan (PRC), all of the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Isreal), many of the 'stans (east of the Urals).

    Asians: We are well, well over half the world's population, yet we are one f***ing bubble on the form that asks what race you are. What a f***ing joke.

    Me: I'm Asian. But, I'm not Chinese. I'm not Japanese. I'm not Korean. I'm not Thai. I'm not Russian. I'm not Jewish. I'm not Arabic. I'm not from one of the 'stans. I'm certainly not "oriental." I bet there are a bunch of people scratching their heads, thinking, but then you're not Asian. Silly people.

    (Sorry for the rant)
     
  6. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #6
    Ann Coulter happenned.

    I agree that both sides lack real political discourse. They present ideas, but politicians conviction on those ideas is measured by public opinion and their ability to blame the other side.

    And that is the heart of the problem. The finger pointing. The right says, "Its all the lefts fault." The left says, "Its the rights fault." Nothing gets done. No ideas are out there being debated, just finger pointing.

    And now, God help us, we have conservative pundits like Ann Coulter on the scene. Her current "platform" is accusing the left of killing political discourse and of resorting to namecalling, labling and fingerpointing. And she has a point. The problem is she fails to recognize that she is doing the exact same thing, just as most conservatives do. On top of this, the facts that she credits (and footnotes) in her book are at best, very dubious in their veracity and at worst outright lies.

    And so Coulter becomes what she purports to expose on the left: a fingerpointing, venom-spewing pundit.

    I think this is characteristic of extremists and party loyalists on both sides. And it is unfortunately becoming more and more true for most of the "middle ground" liberals and conservatives. And as it happens, as public opinion rules political action and beliefs, as winning elections becomes a game of smearing and branding your opponents, as both sides become more similar yet more visciously divided, real political debate and real change to the benifit of society ceases.

    Its sad really.

    Taft
     
  7. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #7
    A side note...

    A coworker of mine is a selfproclaimed Libertarian leaning HEAVILY to the right. But he is a very reasonable and rational person, for whom I have a lot of respect.

    We have debates about twice a week. The debates are spurred by whats in the headlines or things that come up in the office, but the end up with some heavy political debate. Both myself and my coworker come away from these debates enlightened and feeling good, even though we didn't change each others minds necessarily. We saw each others viewpoints, we batted them around in our heads and we talked about them. Its a very fullfilling experience.

    Another coworker also leans heavily to the right. But he, in contrast, is the kind of person stopping debate in this country. He is out to win the debate. He doesn't want to really hear my arguments, he only wants to convince me of his. Our conversations only serve to frustrate and anger me.

    And I think this highlights one of the main problems with politics in general. What matters most is not the welfare of our society and nation. What matters most is which side wins. The left and the right are battling for supremicy and to win, they must control the minds and hearts of the public.

    We need to shift the focus of politics away from winning and towards debating and implementing ideas to futher our society and let it prosper.

    Taft
     
  8. zarathustra macrumors 6502a

    zarathustra

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    #8
    My belief is that the media has WAY too much influence on younger adults and the not-yet-voters. The issues become very superficial and watered down, and they will refuse any republican thoughts, ideas just based on the fact that they are republican.

    MTV and the like painted the republicans to be semi-fascist, capitalist opressors that wants the young to get to work (God forbid). It is hard to have a discussion with younger people because they have already made up their minds that anything republican is bad.

    On the other hand, isn't there a saying:

    "When you are young and not a liberal, you don't have a heart, and when you are not a conservative when you are old, you don't have a brain."
     
  9. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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    #9
    Don't forget about the money.

    I believe that the biggest thing destroying our politics is money. Not just any money but Corporate money. Here is what I think should happen in our country:

    1) Get rid of all corporate income tax. At the moment it only makes up 10% of the federal government's tax income anyway.

    2) Remove all corporate monies, in any form, from politics. (no taxisation without representation see above "1"). This means both direct political contributions, as well as paying for plane trips, meals, cars, schools, fund raiser/rally locations...etc.

    3) Remove the cap on personal donations to political parties.

    All of these things need to happen in short order. These will never happen because our representitives in D.C. are enjoying the fortunes being thrown their ways by large companies.

    Also I am specifically leaving out the "special intrests" lobbiests. I believe they are different than corporate lobbiests.

    Special Interest Lobbiest: Represents a bunch of like minded people who agree on at least one thing, the special intrest of that group: NRA, ACLU, just to name a couple.

    Corporate Lobbiest: Represenst the 20 or so Chief xxxxx Officers/Board of directors in corporations. Does not represent the 20,000 people working at these companies.

    If these things can be done, we might have a chance at actually being represented by our elected officials.:rolleyes:
     
  10. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #10
    The problem with government now is the Bush administration. They're pushing they're conservative agenda on everyone by piggybacking every issue onto "terrorism" and "patriotism"....more like "jingoism".

    Suddenly it's "unpatriotic" to criticize your government. This is evident by the fact that The White House publicly scolded outspoken critics after 9/11, and has continued to do so. (e.g. Bill Maher).

    And you're "unAmerican" if you're not staunchly Christian. Like you're somehow not part of the club (e.g. Pledge debate, recent AIDS conference in which organizations, AND CONGRESS complained about the lack or "religious themes").

    The sign over the door says "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door".

    It does NOT say "send anyone you like as long as their Christian, and they don't criticize what we're doing here".

    We are being hoodwinked. We're being controlled like cattle. But we are living in a society (much like Romans, before the fall of _their_ empire), in which we are placated into pacifism. Placated by mindless, right-wing television and Radio (see that idiot Bill O'Reiley). But we are losing freedoms and rights in large portions.

    Now your government can imprison you for an indefinite period of time, with no charges being filed against you, with no access to an attourney, because they consider you a "threat". And if you're lucky enough to get an attourney, they can record your conversations with him. You're basically screwed. Don't think this only applies to "Terrorists" (whoever, and whatever they are). Read the law. It specifically states that people deemed "dangerous to the continuity of established government" can be imprisoned.

    There's no good debates any more because the PARTIES CONTROL THE DEBATES! In the "town hall" debates, for example, the parties have complete control over:

    a) who asks the questions
    b) to whom they're asked first
    c) what the questions are

    All in advance! The days of true debate, and sorting out true wit are gone. Any party outside the recognized two parties can be excluded from the debates, and can only participate if invited. No real man, or true patriot can realistically run for president any more. And that is truly, truly sad.

    What we need in this country is a good old fashioned revolution. A peoples revolt. We need to show that we're tired of living out a corporate agenda. That we're not a bunch of special interest groups. That we all deserve health care, and the right to be heard, run for office, and question publicly the actions of our government. George Bush and his administration are a disaster, and a human rights crisis of epic proportions is in the making.

    This is no longer the America of Freedom This is the America of Lobyists, the burgeoise, and a socially elite judicial branch.

    I say, "I blow my nose to you" to the FBI, who I know will eventually examine this. :p :mad:

    And yes, I am a patriot, because I know that true patriots question the actions of their government.

    Soory, but I truly despise what's happening with our governemnt, and it makes me sick.

    ...whew...I feel better. :D
     
  11. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #11
    Oh yeah, and before he screwed up,

    JAMES TRAFFICANT WAS A GOD!
     
  12. zarathustra macrumors 6502a

    zarathustra

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    #12
     
  13. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #13
    The pledge to immigration. That debate has been had, but to rehash, the basic voice of the Conservative GOP was "If you don't like the fact that we believe in God, you shouldn't be here".

    And I personally don't care if Bill Clinton got is rocks off in the oval office. If I were the most powerful man in the world, I would to. At least under Clinton we couldn't be subjected to random and seemingly unjustified search and siezure, indefinite imprisonment without legal representation, seen the elimination of attourney-client privalege, and allowed to be wire-tapped for no reason whatsoever.

    And how is the Bush administration a disaster? Are you for real? His environmental policy is an atrocity, alone. Our "foreign policy" is a disgrace. We walked away from a middle-east peace deal it took us 8 years to build, and now we're back to square one. Yes, let's elect Harvey Pitt chairman of the SEC when he used to be a PERSONAL TAX ATTOURNEY to a number of the CEO's and CFO's who are now under investigation for fraud. I could go on, and on.
     
  14. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #14
    yes, i agree with you. i in no way implied he was to blame for the economy. that wasn't even part of my rant.
     
  15. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #15
    I believe you mean conversation

    Yes, Bill Maher is in fact, a biased host. I would agree with you. but my point is, you don't see the white house scolding bill o'reiley when makes Hitler-esque comments like calling all muslums "the enemy". but you do see them scolding bill maher when he's outspoken about his contempt for the bush administration's piggyback politics, and using Sept. 11th as a political tool.
     
  16. BongHits macrumors regular

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    #16
    ill make it easy for all of you...religion is a means of opressing the poor...all it is issaying SURE YOUR LIFES ****TY NOW BUT IF YOUR GOOD ENOUGH YOU'LL LIVE IN ETERNAL HAPPINESS IN HEAVEN **** that ****, when you die your body decomposes and becomes part of the surroundings. I don't need a freaking child molester to tell me how to live a holy and pure life. Religion is an instrument of the rich, ever notice how modest and humble the popes gold embroidered cloth is? Give me a break. Btw my dad's father was hardcore roman catholic and my mom's side of the family is jewish so don't tell me i have no idea about religion.
     
  17. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #17
    Here's my point. There's a lot of youngsters on these polls who don't vote. Maybe they're not old enough, but whatever. they probably don't take much notice of what's going on in the government, or who's taking away their rights. But these kids are the future of this country, and the sooner they realize what's really going on here, they can act to force change.

    The smallest percentage of voters are people under 35. That's truly sad. These issues need to be discussed with young people, and brought to their attention, so that than can take steps to make changes before it's too late. Before these constitutional violations are too engrained in our society.
     
  18. BongHits macrumors regular

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    #18
    preach on brother...now if only half the popular vote were more like you...o wait, it was. the bush family is a joke, anyone who doesn't understand the fact that every time a bush is elected we WILL go to war to expand big oil companies is a f*ckin moron. I think it's very convenient that Bush let the afghans and bin laden attack (with or w/o prior knowledge u can decide) the united states after they refused an agreement to build an oil pipe line directly through Taliban territory that would give them nothing. It would have cost billions to go around them, so instead we went straight through and gave them ZERO of the profit from THEIR oil, and when they said no, we started world war 3.
     
  19. BongHits macrumors regular

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    #19
    to zarathustra: its amazing how the only supporter of Bush is actually from Dallas. Unfortunately your secession from the united states was a failure. Give it another try
     
  20. BongHits macrumors regular

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    #20
    ill make it easy for all of you...religion is a means of opressing the poor...all it is issaying SURE YOUR LIFES ****TY NOW BUT IF YOUR GOOD ENOUGH YOU'LL LIVE IN ETERNAL HAPPINESS IN HEAVEN **** that ****, when you die your body decomposes and becomes part of the surroundings. I don't need a freaking child molester to tell me how to live a holy and pure life. Religion is an instrument of the rich, ever notice how modest and humble the popes gold embroidered cloth is? Give me a break. Btw my dad's father was hardcore roman catholic and my mom's side of the family is jewish so don't tell me i have no idea about religion.
     
  21. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #21
    you are absolutely positively spot on. well, maybe not the WWIII part...

    but you are correct, i believe. (although i would like to think you wrong about the letting them attack us thing) :(
     
  22. Judo macrumors regular

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    #22
    I don't know how many times I've posted this now, but this site is the BEST news site I've seen. It always has articles on what the American gouvernment is up to and gives a different spin from the absolute cr@p you get from other media. www.alternet.org

    I don't live in America (from New Zealand) and from an outsiders point of view I'm not at all impressed with George Bush, but I'm not sure Bill Clinton was any better. Has anyone seen The Clinton Chronicles?? Don't know if I believe it all but it is interesting and a little funny cause it's just so over the top. not something I would put past an American President though.


    Shot Bonghits:p I can't stand religion, It's stifled human freedoms, curiosity and society so much in the past I just don't understand why people still dedicate their lives to it.
     
  23. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #23
    Holy extremist opinions Batman.

    I lean liberal, I dislike Bush and his administration's policies as much as anyone, and I believe that religion through the ages has been as self-serving and manipulative as any monarch or government. But this and your rant on Bush rigging WWIII are total s**t.

    If you read the original post on this thread, you'll see that the question posed is, "Why doesn't the GOP have a voice? Why isn't there real political discussion?" YOU are the answer to this question. By uncompromisingly pushing your lies and extreme views on people, you completely block real political discussion.

    Let some opposing opinions in your head. Throw them around a little. Find the good in them and the bad. Offer REAL solutions to REAL problems. Send your message rationally and without the hype.

    THAT is how we get back to real political discussion in this country.

    Taft
     
  24. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #24
    reason is simple... republicans and dems are the same. nothing to debate...
     
  25. zarathustra macrumors 6502a

    zarathustra

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    #25
    I was going to think you were a reasonable, intelligent person until I read your "f*ckin moron" comment. Anyone can believe in whatever they want, and it's no reason to call them explicit names. You absolutely discredited yourself by using such language. It is very easy to spew expletives.

    BTW, To claim that Bush "let" the terrorists attack, is just plain wrong. It is a revelation for me that the US was building oil pipes through Afghanistan. If this is the case, I still don't understand your comments.

    It is confusing that "they refused an agreement to build an oil pipe line directly through Taliban territory that would give them nothing"; "It would have cost billions to go around them, so instead we went straight through and gave them ZERO of the profit from THEIR oil, and when they said no, we started world war 3".

    If they are piping through Afghanistan, they are not drilling there; if they are not drilling there, it's not their oil. If they did pipe through Taliban territory, there would have been plenty of opportunity to disrupt the oil flow. And I don't remember the Al-Qaeda ever requesting the payment for oil or removal of oil lines from Afghanistan. I would love to see where you pulled these wonderful gems of information from.
     

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