What is going on with the G5?

Discussion in 'Hardware Rumors' started by Falleron, Dec 11, 2001.

  1. macrumors 68000

    Falleron

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    UK
    #1
    Ok people, lets have a summary of what we are getting in january!

    Has or has the G5 not gone into production?
    Will it just be the G4 (new spec) chip?
    Are the iMac rumours from 1 source? If so is it correct?

    http://www.macosrumorus.com is still not available, whats going on?
     
  2. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2001
    Location:
    NY
    #2
    I gotta say.....

    I am with Falleron on this one. I think everybody is just as confused as us on this topic. My idea is this: No matter what anybody says, it is basically all rumors, except that thing with Apple ordering 100,000 15' LCD displays. I am all for the G5, but we really won't know until Jan 8. I guess we are just playing a guessing game.
     
  3. thread starter macrumors 68000

    Falleron

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    UK
    #3
    Re: I gotta say.....

    Everybody has no idea whats going to happen with the powerMacs! Its not a good thing to speculate too much because we will all be disappointed when the G5 does not come out until the summer (even if we want it in january).

     
  4. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    #4
    wow! 15' displays

    That means apple must be getting into the digital billboard market, don't you think?
     
  5. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    #5
    >Ok people, lets have a summary of what we are getting in january!
    >Has or has the G5 not gone into production?

    (G5 desktop boxes or MPC8500 processor?)

    It should have (8500) by now; the 8500 should have been taped out months
    ago (even by relaxed expectations). Motorola has announced their 8540,
    which contains a Book E compliant core (i.e. a G5 core) sans altivec (the
    pdf says "222 new simd instructions" iirc -- odd, probably not altivec II;
    it would have been branded such otherwise). So the G5 core is finished and
    presumably the 8500 is not significantly different from the 8540 (same
    core, plus altivec rather than these mysterious "222 new simd
    instructions" the pdf mentioned). If the 8540 has gone into production
    then I believe it would be safe to assume the 8500 is ready to go into
    production also. Apple would presumably be chomping at the bit for 8500s,
    so it stands to reason that Moto is fabricating them as we speak.

    *pant* *pant* [i did that in full so no one annoys me with phony-sounding
    pessimism -- it annoys me]

    So I conclude that Motorola has finished the 8500 and that it is currently
    in fabrication en masse for apple (or will be soon, my point is that the
    obstacles have been cleared given the hard evidence of the 8540 we have so
    far). So assuming my logic is sound, Apple will release 8500-based Pro
    desktops provided they get a sufficient volume of 8500s. Apple can always
    buy themselves another month by announcing the G5 macs in February
    (macworld tokyo), shipping say 4-6 weeks after (notice that by then, we're
    ~halfway to MWNY :p). That should buy Apple plenty of time -- one month at
    least -- to accumulate more G5s/shout at||threaten motorola/get moto to
    get yields up/whatever it takes, and without needing a G4 refresh in the
    interim.



    >Will it just be the G4 (new spec) chip?

    The rumours state that Apple will ship Apollo processors in their pro
    line, but the actual line itself will be branded the Power Macintosh G5.

    I doubt Apple will do this; if so, when the 8500-based Pro line is
    released, what will Apple name that? (`G6'?)



    >Are the iMac rumours from 1 source? If so is it correct?

    How are we meant to tell if the rumours are correct? :p



    >http://www.macosrumorus.com is still not available, whats going on?

    (is it that big a deal?) mosr's always (constantly, chronically) upgrading
    servers/switching providers/going on holiday etc etc etc. Their pace of
    update has slowed to a crawl in the past year or so, particularly since
    their switching to OS X Server (probably a good thing given their track
    record).
     
  6. thread starter macrumors 68000

    Falleron

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    UK
    #6
    Who in their right mind will spend large amounts of money on an apollo based powermac in mid january when they could get a G5 in say febuary/march? From what I have read the G5 will give a large bump in speed --> making the january systems almost straight away out of date!

    I know that all systems as soon as you buy them are out of date, but such a large revision so soon???
     
  7. macrumors 6502

    Kethoticus

    #7
    comments

    "*pant* *pant* [i did that in full so no one annoys me with phony-sounding pessimism -- it annoys me]"

    No phony pessimism here buster. If it SOUNDS phony, I deeply, passionately, from the bottom-most reaches of my heart, apologize.


    "Their pace of update has slowed to a crawl in the past year or so, particularly since their switching to OS X Server (probably a good thing given their track record)."

    Ayyyymen. No great loss there. Kinda like AOL UK not supporting Mac OS X. I know I won't be shedding any tears.
     
  8. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    #8
    Falleron>Who in their right mind will spend large amounts of money on an
    apollo based powermac in mid january when they could get a G5 in say
    febuary/march?

    That was my point, namely that Apple doesn't need to release Apollo based
    powermacs in january even if they can't get volume from moto -- they can
    buy a month by releasing at tokyo. That's ~4 weeks in hand to accumulate
    stocks of 8500s.
     
  9. thread starter macrumors 68000

    Falleron

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    UK
    #9
    I think they should do that (even though I want a G5 now!!), so do you think we will only get new iMacs in january? Makes sense really, give all attention to the iMac?
     
  10. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    #10
    Falleron> I think they should do that (even though I want a G5 now!!), so
    do you think we will only get new iMacs in january? Makes sense really,
    give all attention to the iMac?

    Good point. Apple wouldn't want to announce a whole new imac revamp and
    the G5 (8500, NOT the Apollo, I doubt strongly that Apple will badge 7460s
    as `G5s') at the same expo. So if volume production is humming along fine
    as we speak and apple can get their hands on good supplies of G5s, then G5
    in january and perhaps (_perhaps_) a tokyo imac announcement. However, if
    Apple wants to announce the G5 in february due to poor G5 yields, then the
    imac will have to be shoehorned into january -- meaning no major updates
    as the FX will not be shipping then as I gather, it will only be sampling
    in January, meaning announcement-only, delayed-release. In that case,
    Apple would probably aim a revamped imac at MWNY. I have already stated my
    case above that the 8500 is finished (without having to rely on rumour =])
    so assuming my logic is sound, Apple's release schedule 2002 will most
    likely rely on 8500 yields.

    So in short, January imacs would be a spec-bump-only if released. Apple
    would aim a substantial revamp mid-year.
     
  11. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Location:
    NJ
    #11
    on apple's hotnews today under the steve jobs keynote, steve says, "We're working hard to make this January's Macworld the most exciting ever." sounds cool

    -i think it's pretty clear now that the way overdue imac will come out

    -but i still think everyone is still pretty confused over the G5, i think i'd be dumb if they speed bumped the g4's now and but the g5s out in feb, it's either now or New York
     
  12. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2001
    Location:
    NY
    #12
    I Think:

    I think that Apple will probaly release the new iMac line in Jan with the G4 Apollo chip. My other thinking is that Apple would release the G5 in Maworld Tokyo. That sounds good to me. MWNY might have something new instore: maybe like a new digital device.
     
  13. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    #13
    Re: I Think:

    MacManiac1224> I think that Apple will probaly release the new iMac line
    in Jan with the G4 Apollo chip. My other thinking is that Apple would
    release the G5 in Maworld Tokyo.

    Indeed. G5-at-tokyo would buy Apple the extra few weeks to accumulate
    8500s. Above I asserted that the January iMacs (assuming they're released
    in january due to the G5s being forced to February) being spec-bumps at
    most; G4s are a distinct possibility (don't know how I forgot to mention
    Apollo-based imacs, i think i was hungry at the time =]); in fact it's
    probable in at least the top end iMacs due to the FX missing the boat
    somewhat. Low-end imac revisions at MWNY could conceivably have FXs, but I
    believe that Apple will transition the entire imac line to G4s in one hit
    in jan/feb or over jan/feb and MWNY (july? iirc). I believe that Apple
    will use the FX for laptops, IBM's releases on the matter lead me to
    believe that the FX would make a superb iBook processor with its
    nonexistent power consumption and Altivec compatibility (assuming the SIMD
    units referred to by many pan out as true, I haven't investigated it
    further -- check
    http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_750FX_Microprocessor
    and view the middle and last documents (PDFs, 200 - 300k each -- I don't
    have the time right now to check them out, so if there's no mention of
    SIMD in them...)


    > That sounds good to me. MWNY might have something new instore: maybe
    like a new digital device.

    Possibly, a step further in the digital hub initiative maybe? If Apple can
    get volume of higher-clockspeed G5s, i'm sure they would be chomping at
    the bit to get some back at the Wintel world :cool:
     
  14. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Location:
    California
    #14
    G5's will be announced at Macworld & ship in February. iMacs will ship with APPLEos and "hopefully" (lets all pray now) the flatpanel iMac will be launched. I just hope the GeForce 3 Titanium 500 will be launched. We had the original GeForce 3 first & now the PC get all the priveleges with the upgraded version!
     
  15. macrumors 68000

    Ensign Paris

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Europe
    #15
    Let it snow! Happy Christmas

    I think we will see:

    G5s Announced but not released
    G4 slightly upgraded with max being 1ghz
    NEW DESIGN iMac! at 1ghz

    Guy
     
  16. thread starter macrumors 68000

    Falleron

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2001
    Location:
    UK
    #16
    Re: Let it snow! Happy Christmas

    I think the G4 will bumped up to 1.2Ghz
     
  17. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2001
    #17
    If you go to Motorola's website using the following link;
    http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,568_322_23,00.html

    and read the article you will find the following quote;
    Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002.

    Because the MPC8450 is presumably a much less complicated chip than a desktop cpu, I would think the G5 for use by Apple will come after the MPC8450 is in production. I very well could be wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but based on this info. I'm not expecting Apple to begin using a G5 for quite some time.

    [Edited by rickag on 12-12-2001 at 07:53 PM]
     
  18. macrumors 6502

    Kethoticus

    #18
    The G5

    "Because the MPC8450 is presumably a much less complicated chip than a desktop cpu, I would think the G5 for use by Apple will come after the MPC8450 is in production. I very well could be wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but based on this info. I'm not expecting Apple to begin using a G5 for quite some time."

    Hmmm... don't wanna say anything. Don't want to be accused of feigning pessimism.
     
  19. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    #19
    joey j> "If the 8540 has gone into production then I believe it would be
    safe to assume the 8500 is ready to go into production also. "[/QUOTE]

    >If you go to Motorola's website using the following link;
    http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,568_322_23,00.html

    >and read the article you will find the following quote;
    >Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002.

    I should have refined my argument further; remove all instances of "has
    gone into production" and replace with "is finished". I presumed that
    finished architectures go immediately into production, which may not
    necessarily be the case (although it is unnerving :( )

    In any case the book E core should have been finished by now; Motorola may
    very well be working on the SIMD extensions to the 8540 (which may be the
    reason for the delay) whereas the 8500 has altivec (finished). If the book
    E core is finished (which should be a safe assumption -- any objections?),
    and Altivec is finished, then the 8500 should be finished, unless i've
    missed an area of processor development in particular.


    >Because the MPC8450 is presumably a much less complicated chip than a desktop cpu,

    I disagree; as they're both book E compliant (as opposed to the
    differences between (say) the 4xx and the 74xx series) so there's no major
    difference, apart from the potentially complicated extra SIMD extensions
    to the 8540. (which motorola could still be in the process of designing).


    > I would think the G5 for use by Apple will come after the MPC8450 is in
    production. I very well could be wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but based on
    this info. I'm not expecting Apple to begin using a G5 for quite some time.

    Apple has had the 74xx architecture since ~sep 99. They won't wait another
    year for the G5; six months maybe.
     
  20. macrumors 6502

    Kethoticus

    #20
    Joey, you assume a lot

    "Apple has had the 74xx architecture since ~sep 99. They won't wait another year for the G5; six months maybe."

    Apple's hands were tied by Moto 2 years ago, and they've only broken the 500MHz barrier this past year. Apple "won't wait another year"? What if they have no choice?

    As Mulder's poster said, "I want to believe." But what I want to believe in may be just as impossible.
     
  21. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    #21
    Re: Joey, you assume a lot

    Kethoticus> "Apple has had the 74xx architecture since ~sep 99. They won't
    wait another year for the G5; six months maybe."

    >Apple's hands were tied by Moto 2 years ago, and they've only broken the
    500MHz barrier this past year. Apple "won't wait another year"? What if
    they have no choice?

    >As Mulder's poster said, "I want to believe." But what I want to believe
    in may be just as impossible.


    Haha, true, Apple's hands are indeed tied by Moto's yields. I was
    reasoning that Apple had been setting up alternative fabrication
    partnerships given Motorola's lacklustre fabrication of the G4 series. In
    any case, the G5 will be fabricated in Moto's new process (all the
    buzzwords), 0.13u transitioning to 0.1u, low-k-constant dielectrics, and
    SOI. So the G5s should have better yields than the G4s.
     
  22. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2001
    #22
    "E core is finished (which should be a safe assumption -- any objections?)"

    No, but if you go to the link below and to page 4 it says;
    "-e500 core. Motorola's first G5 offering, optimized for performance and power, specifically designed for embedded market"

    http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDFH1101.pdf

    Note that the e500 core is the one used in the MPC8450. Two things stand out to me.

    1 "the e500 is the first G5 offering"
    2 "specifically designed for embedded market"

    This tells me that a different core will be used for chips for the desktop market and they will come after the MPC8450.

    So for a chip for Apple = new core, tying it to RapidI/O, OCeaN (On-Chip Network)., etc. In my very limited knowledge this still would be very complicated.

    Still hope I'm wrong and the G5 comes out, but regardless, I'm buying in Jan. :)

    Oh one more note: look to page 19 of the PDF concerning the MPC7540 G4
    "-DDR SRAM L3 backside cache design implementation"
    "- MVP will be offered to customers as a development system in 3Q01"

    Combined this w/ HiP7(0.13µ and SOI) for the MPC7460 Apollo = very very nice upgrade.

     
  23. Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #23
    assuming a lot?

    that's why this website is called macrumors, duh
     
  24. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2001
    #24
    joey j> "E core is finished (which should be a safe assumption -- any
    objections?)"

    rickag>No, but if you go to the link below and to page 4 it says; "-e500
    core. Motorola's first G5 offering, optimized for performance and power,
    specifically designed for embedded market"

    ... sounds like marketingspeak to me :p. It does have "optimized for
    performance and power", see? :p. As far as "specifically designed for
    embedded market goes", um, see below, i'm replying to you bottom-up for
    some reason. The "specifically designed" features could be the
    (apparently) DSP-like functionality in the 8540, which Apple most
    likely won't be using (and is the most likely delay to the 8540, apart
    from maybe the extra simd instructions apple won't require either).



    >http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDFH1101.pdf

    >Note that the e500 core is the one used in the MPC8450. Two things stand
    out to me.

    >1 "the e500 is the first G5 offering"
    >2 "specifically designed for embedded market"

    >This tells me that a different core will be used for chips for the
    desktop market and they will come after the MPC8450.

    ( ... 8540.)

    A different core? Hardly. I doubt Motorola's going to design an entire new
    "core" (note the vagueness of the term), particularly if your conclusion
    was reached on the basis of marketing speak (their press release was for
    the benefit of their customers, i.e. largely the embedded market, they
    want to hear that the 8540 is specifically "designed for the embedded
    market" whether or not that particular book E implementation goes down
    well in desktops or not.) Remember that the same second-generation G4 core
    in the 7450 core serves both cisco and Apple, so I can't see why Moto
    can't pull the same stunt with the G5 core.



    >So for a chip for Apple = new core,

    I disagree altogether. A "new core" means either a ground up redesign
    (e.g. G5) or at least a major step forward from a previous architecture
    (603e -> 7xx). It's not going to happen; the 8540 core is the "G5 core"
    which Apple undoubtedly must have prototypes of (at least). Although
    that's just my opinion 8)



    > tying it to RapidI/O, OCeaN (On-Chip Network)., etc. In my very limited
    knowledge this still would be very complicated.

    Is apple going to use rapidio? Bear in mind that Apple is listed as part
    of the hypertransport consortium. In any case I have read that rapidio is
    "ready to go". I don't have the url but the quote was from someone from
    the Microprocessor Report as i recall.
     
  25. macrumors 6502

    Kethoticus

    #25
    Yes, assuming too much

    Jef wrote: "assuming a lot?"

    Learn the differences between assumption, hope, expectation and rumor. What I'm reading here is a lot of expectation.
     

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