what should apple do for education?

Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by jefhatfield, Mar 26, 2002.

?

Does your school buy you new apple gear?

  1. always

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  2. sometimes

    6 vote(s)
    46.2%
  3. never

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. my school doesn't use macs

    5 vote(s)
    38.5%
  1. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #1
    i teach computer science part time and i see the need for low cost gear due to budget constraints

    but i am also in the IT field, and i see the real need for the most recent gear (and software) to teach our students well, but that is expensive

    how do you think apple could help schools?
     
  2. voicegy macrumors 65816

    voicegy

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Sandy Eggo - MacRumors Member since 1-1-2002
    #2
    Please clarify

    Maybe I'm the dummy, but I currently think Apple bends over backwards to please its education market, beyond taking a few bucks off their products.

    As a Network Systems/Media Tech for San Diego City Schools in the Educational Technology dept., our Apple reps have always met or exceeded our expectations for support on many levels, including, as I stated before, that all important cost cut.

    I guess one thing may be holding "contests" of sorts for most creative use of their products and software, with, oh, I dunno...the prize being a room full of iMacs or a site-wide license for one of their software products. Other than GIVING things away, I think the present combination of outstanding service and support, discounts, and the depth of the Apple education page on their web site meets, at least, our needs.

    (there is an interesting side note as to how far backwards Apple will bend for school sites. Los Angeles Unified complained long and loud about machines being shipped with OS X as the default startup system, and wanted a simple way to make some upcoming orders "choice" oriented. Apple augmented the education purchase page with two gel-cap buttons that gave the purchaser a choice of shipped start-up OS. These choices are reserved for machines most likely to be purchased for student use...the iBook and the CRT iMac)
     
  3. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #3
    back in the old days before i was eligible for education discounts, apple marked their gear 30 percent off the regular price...but that was a long time ago

    i was just wondering if apple is in that position today or if the gear being sold now is already at the lowest price they can afford to sell it at

    i wonder what dell charges for their education stuff?
     
  4. MacAztec macrumors 68040

    MacAztec

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Location:
    San Luis Obispo, CA
  5. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #5
    don't tell me they are dells

    dell just took first place in the education market as i heard on the radio somewhere

    the local junior college here has all dells in their business/computing room and they took out half the room of macs and discarded them!:mad:
     
  6. MacAztec macrumors 68040

    MacAztec

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Location:
    San Luis Obispo, CA
    #6
    Not Dell

    They are some company like AOpen and Microlink. Pieces of **** as far as I am conerned.

    Just my .02 cents
     
  7. Macmaniac macrumors 68040

    Macmaniac

    #7
    Our school

    We have a mac lab in our school, and some macs in our TV studio. But the school uses mostly Dells and some wierd custom bad wintel boxes.
     
  8. King Cobra macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    #8
    At Pascack Hills not one Mac is being used! It is all DELLs and other P3s.

    I say that if Apple needs to get more out of the education market Apple could start selling real cheap, but fast, computers.
    __________________

    It does not take a genius to figure it out . . . just someone who uses a Mac.
     
  9. G4scott macrumors 68020

    G4scott

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2002
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    #9
    At my school (McAllen High School, McAllen TX), we use mainly pee-cee's, except for a dual 500 in the music building, and a bunch of G4's in our school's tv-video class (which has won many awards nationally). The rest of the computers are pee-cee's, put in the rooms. I am in a class where i am training for my A+ CompTia certification, and we sometimes help the teachers with their computers, but when they have windows 2000 set up on them so you can't even setup a printer without an administrator password, it's pathetic. And our school complains about spending too much on computers... Fortuanetly (or however you spell it), all of the middle schools and elementary schools have tons of Macs. nothing but. My school district has that problem where they think that high school students need to use pee-cee's, because it will better prepare them for their jobs. I know there's a web page that completely debunks that myth, and many others about education.

    If Apple wants to get a share in the education market, they need to focus on their prices. They have all of the features +, but some schools just don't have the budget to buy 300 iBooks, some G4 servers, a bunch of iMacs, and tons of software to go with it all. If Apple made computers + software in education affordable, they would really do well. Especially since that's what almost all school districts base their purchasing decisions on. Price...

    Anyways, if you are in a pee-cee school, see if you can find this site (it's a mac.com page) that fully explains why Macs are better than pee-cee's, and show it to your administrators. Maybe they'll reconsider their next purchasing decision...
     
  10. teabgs macrumors 68030

    teabgs

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Location:
    behind you
    #10
    On apple's education store they have custom "education packages" that arent sold in the regular Apple store. I don't know if its only for my school or if its all schools. But they have a 733 Tower available at the Ed Store, but not the regular. I don't feel like checking any other categories but I am pretty sure its the same way.

    Granted this is for single purchases for University Students/staff but still. The savings is not huge, but it isa few hundred dollars. They take off a few hundred (about $300) to start and then add on $50-100 off depending on the model, as a special reabate. And then there is the display deal which is taken off of the discounted prices. BUt thats only good till March 31 so it'll do me no good unless they keep that offer good until July.
     
  11. AmbitiousLemon Moderator emeritus

    AmbitiousLemon

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2001
    Location:
    down in Fraggle Rock
    #11
    i have looked into this extensively and found apple's education "discounts" are a load of crap to put it simply. apple takes off $50 off consumer level machines and custom machines (like that 733 model) and takes off $100 the pro models. this is much less than tax so schools are better off buying from a online vendor who doesnt charge tax than going with an apple "discount."

    Dell offers 30% discounts on all of its machines. it seems like a joke that apple only takes off $50 from the consumer models since these are the machines that schools on a budject would buy. hardly a deal.

    after mwt apple cut prices on the powermacs again so the prices currently are a little less than the normal $50 and $100 discount, but this is temporary since they are just trying to clear out stock before the new machines come in in a few months.

    our school (UC Berkeley) is primarily macintosh. the only peecees you see are bought by stupid/stubborn peecee users. apple helps us out more than most schools by shipping nigh end systems a few months before they are released and shipping other items quicker than normal orders. but this is not typical treatment. apple used to give 20 -30 % discounts to schools (thats why dell offers 30%, they were just matching apple) this is not the case anymore and i see it as apple abandoning the education market. apple offers employees 30-40% off so im sure they can offer schools a more significant discount than a miniscule $50.

    if third party vendors can offer better deals then something is wrong with the apple education "discount" in my opinion.
     
  12. eyelikeart Moderator emeritus

    eyelikeart

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2001
    Location:
    Metairie, LA
    #12
    re: education

    Personally....I don't think it's up to Apple as far as what goes on in education...because when it comes down to it, it's the schools & the heads of departments that make the final call....although that's going to be based upon whether or not these dept. heads feel it's worth the money to go with Mac...

    but...Apple should have something great to offer....u know...."an offer u can't refuse"...

    Maybe bundling systems with software for students to use...networking software....minimal applications....AppleWorks maybe ( I don't know! I don't use it!)...learning tools basically to give them purpose...

    maybe a selling point they could would be for Apple to have on-site techs for the schools....actually have someone who works for them come in and setup the systems & the networking...show the teachers how to work the stuff...train them...

    I have more ideas but I'm at work so I'll post them a.s.a.p!!! :p
     
  13. lordsinforge macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2002
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    #13
    here at U of M it's about 50/50 macs/pc's with dells being the most prevelent pc. However I have been seeing a heck of a lot of iBooks on campus lately. In my 2 cs classes this year one class has only iBooks showing up in class and the other has a few iBooks and 1 windoze laptop. I also work for the university and the number of mac Laptops I see floating around the ITD building is kinda staggering. At least in collages the UNIX base for osX (plus the free dev tools) make it a popular choice for computer science people who want a portable and don't want to deal with trying to get linux running on it.

    aslide from that i got a little note for students in collage. Sign up for the apple studnet developer program, sure it costs you 99 bucks, but you get a 1 time use discount on a hardware purchace. 10 - 20% saves you about 800 + on the hight end tower, but It may not be avalable with promos (doesn't work with the 500 dollar screen rebate offer.)
     
  14. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #14
    I've actually found that if you go through an Apple rep, they can quote you hardware prices that are much lower than what's on the website.

    You can really save a lot on the software though. Most things are around 40 - 50% off.

    And as for support, I have found them much easier to deal with than Dell for replacement parts, etc.
     
  15. lordsinforge macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2002
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    #15
    From my experiance when I was at western Michigan apple will bend over backwards to give you deals if you are looking to buy a fairly large number of computers (30+ area). If you go through a account rep for your school.
     
  16. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #16
    maybe so, but i agree with ambitious lemon when he compares apple with dell...you know dell will steal the market from apple if something is not done soon

    ...i am at school right now typing on a dell optiplex gx 110 (whatever the heck that is)...i am waiting for my pc class because that is all they have...no mac classes offered at the school anymore except for the "art" department...no macs in the library or the business-computer science department
     
  17. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Location:
    Santa Cruz Ca
    #17
    Blame Sac.

    In Sacramento a couple years ago they decided all California State institutions and Emergency Response had to be standardized.

    Guess what those idiots picked?

    Mac? No.

    Linux?No.

    Unix?No.

    M$? Bingo.:mad: :eek: :confused:

    So the next time you dial 911 in California.........remember: The dispatch aint on Macs any more. You may be better off just honking at a cop or driving to the hospital cuz Windoze may not get you there.
     
  18. evildead macrumors 65816

    evildead

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Location:
    WestCost, USA
    #18
    my school

    I am Computer science Major (and another major as well) at my University. We have mostly WinBox's but we also have a Sun lab and a Mac Lab. The Mac lab just got upgradded to the Latest Quicksilvers with 15in LCD's. It is sooooo nice to walk by and see them all lined up in rows. The Sun lab is running Solaris 8. We have some Ultra1's, Ulitra5's, Ultra10's, and a E250 for a server. I help out with the lab at times.

    Unfortunatly some of the proffesors in the CS department tell the students to code with MS Visual Studio. They have it on their desks so they think we should too. MS dose not use the standard C, C++, or Java classes and libs. I hate getting my program to run with the javac compiler in the SunLab or on OS X at home and then having to run it with MS VisualJ++ and finding out that you cant do standard Java stuff with the MS compiler. Thats the platform that my prof will run it in ... so I have to turn it in that way.


    As for Mac's in Computer science... I am all for it!!!! They are much cheeper than Sun's and they can do everything that a Sun Box can do (or at least everything that a stuent would need to do) Plus, onece you install the Apple Dev kit... you have everything you need. No going out to find Open source stuff and compiling them.

    I want to see Mac's used more in CS. Now that OS X is BSD UNIX... there is no limmit!
     
  19. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Location:
    Illinois
    #19
    Why are you at all surprised that school districts are moving toward Dell and Windoze type machines. The initial reaction I got whenever I mentioned anything on these boards (because I'm a PC person and hadn't completly adopted the mac mantra) was negative. Mac users are elitist and extremely zealous about their favorite computers.

    Whenever the subject of PC versus Mac comes up, invariably friction between the PC user and the Mac user generates flames. I can't tell you how many times I got the sh** flamed out of me because I said something commonly thought among PC users. Rather than encourage PC users to try macs (Hey Apple, put some computers in retail stores for a change!), mac users give us a hard time because we like what we are used to, and have no way to know any different (unless we happen to know a friend who will let us use their mac - lord knows apple has major problems with public exposure of their machines -- no stock and few retailers).

    So, pc users have misconceptions which pisses off mac users. Thus, pc users rarely cross over without some sort of impetus from Apple. For example, prior to the new imac, the battle lines were pretty stable, but after the new imac, many switched sides.

    In my opinion, after extensive research, I believe macs are a better product. The problem isn't the product, it's the lack of available hardware for exposure and palpable tension between mac and pc users whenever the subject comes up.

    As such, there is a real rift between the mac world and pc world.

    Why is that relevant? Most politicians are over 40 years old. Why is that important? Well, most 40+ year olds were not members of the cutting edge into the PC technology that we have today. They are people whose first exposure to computers came when they went to the local computer store to buy junior a computer (everyone else was buying them, so why not).

    Well, Gateway would ship a computer to your door, as would Dell. Compaqs and HP's were at the local stores. Where's apple? So, you now have all these people whose children have run off to school and left their older compaqs, gateways, dells, and hp's at home for mom and dad to use for email.

    Mom and dad are members of the school board, and when the time comes to vote on computers, what do you think the odds are that they are going to vote for a computer they've never used, never seen (most likely - again as a result of apple's terrible market exposure -- no stock in stores) and rarely ever have a civil conversation about with someone who actually uses them.

    Apple is by far the better machine for educational use, but the people who control the purse strings won't ever know that until mac users make a concerted effort to expose all of their friends and friends parents to the hardware they own in a very civil manner, until apple starts increasing its retail exposure (not only apple stores, but other retail outlets), and until mac users take a more active role in politics.

    Ok, that was far more that I intended, but I got going. Yes, I'm sure the above warrants a flame or two, but you can't argue that pc users and mac users have trouble discussing the differences between their machines in a civil manner, and you can't argue that apple's retail exposure is anywhere near sufficient.

    So, mac users, flame away at this poor schmo who's stuck with his Compaq until the new TiBooks come out.
     
  20. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #20
    I agree with you that the first reaction many Mac-o-philes have is to immediately slam PC users (especially in a forum such as this). I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying that it's understandable.

    Imagine that you're a minority (which Mac users are) and that the majority of the population criticizes you for your beliefs/skin color/religion/computer, etc. You would tend to build up a large amount of animosity towards that majority. When you talk to other minorities it's going to be natural for you to vent about your frustrations to people who understand and feel similarly.

    As a Mac user I do my best to be courteous and to come up with better arguments than "Windoze Sux!".

    There is a general misconception in the educational field that Macs are more expensive than PCs. This is simply not true. The initial cost of a Mac is geater than that of a similarly configured PC. But support, repair and upgrade costs are much greater on PCs. Tech support want to keep their jobs, so they recommend PCs, which will give them much more job security than Macs which require less tech support. Most account managers just see the initial purchase price of the machine and don't consider long-term costs.

    Educators need to be re-educated about computers.
     
  21. AmbitiousLemon Moderator emeritus

    AmbitiousLemon

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2001
    Location:
    down in Fraggle Rock
    #21
    McRain. im not going to argue about your main points: animosity and exposure (although typically i have found it is the pc users who attack the mac user not the other way around).

    no what i have a problem with is hwo you think schools make decisions. do you really thing school boards vote for computers? sorry to burst your bubble but this is not how it works. typically it is one person at the school in question who makes the decision. sometimes it is the principle, sometimes it is a techer, and sometimes it is a parent who is helping out.

    and then with colleges its pretty similiar. its one or two people who decide. and decisions are made on a smaller basis. no one sits around and decided what the entire school will buy. but everytime a computer needs to be bought for a desktop, library terminal, or computer lab it is typically one person who makes the decision.

    so you really dont have the problem of what are the masses using. sometimes schools take some flak from parents who say that macs wont prepare their kiddies for the buisiniess world, but these people have little to no say in the matter. Most schools use macs. a couple years back dell beat apple but apple has remained the winner every other year, so exposure in schools isnt too bad. many scientific instruments and applications use mac so scientists often have to use macs.

    but if you have ever tried to set up a computer lab at a high school or talked to someone who has you will find the problem is price. apple's are cheaper than pcs of the same configureation, but does a computer lab need a cdrw or superdrive? so the pc ends up cheaper because you can get rid of all the superfulous features. throw in that apple doesnt give a significant discount compared to the competition and you see it being very difficult to build an adequate lab of macs. you can simply buy more dells.

    we all know about the problems with dells, but none of these are apparent or immediate, while the issue of price with macs is, so thats what often makes the decision.
     
  22. teabgs macrumors 68030

    teabgs

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Location:
    behind you
    #22

    now, HOw does this work exactly...what else do you get from it, and is there any other costs?
     
  23. lordsinforge macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2002
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    #23
    check out developer.apple.com you can do a search if you need to. Apple gives you all the info but basicly you pay for the membership (I think it lasts for a year) and you get some sort of thing that allows you to go to the Apple store for developers and buy once at the developer rates. I think that if you spring for the 1000+ dollar full developer package you get even more of the number of times.

    it's kinda hard to explain, but the following site has some more info and some links somewhere
    http://www.applestudentdevelopers.org/

    later
     
  24. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #24
    in my local school district, the superintendant chose dells over the previous machines, macs

    it was his "pet project" and he stated the reason was because dells could run microsoft office:rolleyes:

    and btw, he is not a computer user and someone should have told him that microsoft office for mac was one of the top $elling softwares for macs last year
     
  25. DakotaGuy macrumors 68040

    DakotaGuy

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Location:
    South Dakota, USA
    #25
    At the school where I teach we used to have only Macs and then one day the board said that we needed to get PC's with MS Windows, because that is the best and the kids have to know Windows to survive in the real world. So the desktop Macs got trashed and in came the Gateway Celerons! We were lucky and got 50 iBooks this past summer for a wireless lab...but our tech coordinator hates macs and is actually selling them off and has ordered Gateway Solo Celerons for next year, because even though the teachers like the iBooks he says they are junk and are not holding up for the price. He says the Gateway Solo is the best for a school computer. They brought one in and it crashed while he was showing it to us. Oh well...good bye Apple...At least I still have mine at home.
     

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