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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by patrick0brien, Jul 20, 2004.
Why aren't we talking about this?
everything about this situation seems odd. the circumstances surrounding the missing documents, the fact that there are missing documents in the first place, the fact that multiple unnamed sources were ready to make comment on a story that went suddenly public after being confidential for 9 months, the timing of the publicity in relation to the DNC, etc etc etc.
it's all very fishy. i don't know what to make of it.
I would think the timing would have more to do with the 9/11 commission's final report coming out this week than the DNC, but what would I know?
I find it interesting the different reporting by CNN vs. Fox:
CNN: "Colleagues Defend Berger in Documents Probe", subheading "Davis: 'A person of impeccable honesty and integrity' ". Link on home page to video: "Berger has "impeccable honesty"...
FoxNews: "Sandy Berger Probed Over Terror Memos", with a link to "Berger Bind Could Hurt Kerry"...
Kinda like the recent poll headlines, where CNN had Kerry with a "solid lead", and Fox had the race "too close to call"...
Hopefully we can agree it's a good thing Berger's the former national security advisor, regardless of whether this was sinister or "sloppiness".
He says he "apparently had accidentally discarded" highly classified documents? Sheesh. The guy should work at Los Alamos.
Oh, I think you do.
This is how GOP talking points are made.
Perhaps, but I still can't get the math to add up with this regardless of 'politics as usual'.
It's not like the GOP made this up - Sandy has confirmed as much.
I agree with trebblekicked, this is highly wierd - it's not like Sandy didn't know better than to discard Code Word level docs.
It adds up, if you use a cynical political calculator. We don't know what Berger did or didn't do, and we probably wouldn't even have known that questions were being asked if word of the investigation hadn't been leaked from the White House at this opportune moment.
The 9-11 report will come out later this week, but much of the air time (especially on Fox) will be taken up with Sandy Berger and Clinton administration talk. The result will be much less time to talk about the commission's presumed criticisms of the Bush administration's response to 9-11. Just you watch.
Fox has Berger stepping out of his Kerry campaign role:
CNN's not there yet.
Looks like whoever leaked it got at least part of what they wanted.
Well we can't say for sure that the leak came form the White House.
And we do know that he has thrown away code-word materials.
Now I am not saying that the information wasn't leaked for political gain, but I am more concerned with the fact that he appears to be hiding evidence. I am much less concerned that there was a leak from anywhere. Those always exist. I think that this is an important story and I am curious to see what develops from it.
Edit: Quotes are from the article linked to in he first post.
The "importance" of this story is purely politics.
The origin of the leak is obvious.
If you say so. I still find it intriguing that a high ranking official of a past administration seems to have "inadvertently" discarded highly sensitive documents that he removed from the National Archives whiel gathering information to present to the 9/11 commission.
While I agree, there doesn't seem to be much evidence to support it.
Gents, can we pause the politics for a second here? I'm sure we can dribble off into a corner about it as we seem to always do. (I know it's odd to request that in a political forum )
My concern here is what had happened. A person who most assuredly knew better, discarded documents of the highest Top Secret clasification. This is admitted to fact.
At this base level the math still leaves a resounding "WTF!?"
If I were carrying around docs of this classification, I would be aware of their location almost to the pain threshold. This is the gap.
OTOH, Berger's been under DOJ investigation since October. Doesn't seem he's disputing that he improperly took classified material (and misplaced some of it)... And he only extricates himself from the Kerry campaign after it's public?
Not to get off-topic, but this reminds me of the story I read in the NYT, about the report drafted in the UK about the security weaknesses in Heathrow (I believe) that went missing until some citizen found them flapping in the wind on the side of the road and turned them in...needless to say, were these documents to fall into the "wrong" hands, it could have been disastrous...add this to the events at Los Alamos and it would seem you have a trend developing both here and in the UK...cause? Stressed, overworked intelligence personel becoming sloppy, forgetful? Perhaps...I just find it interesting that lately people have begun losing important materials left and right...
sorry for the detour...as for Berger, I suspend judgement till I know more, but the timing does seem politically-motivated...
To everyone who is expressing concern about what Berger may or may not have done, I remind them that it's under investigation, and the only reason we know anything at all about the investigation at this moment in time is because somebody leaked that information to the press. I'd also remind them that the leak included unsubstantiated and anonymous allegations strongly suggesting that whatever Berger did or did not do was intentional and deceitful.
We're discussing a matter about which we know only what was selectively leaked. The fog machine is cranking up. See how well it works?
We are talking about this. I assume you mean 'why aren't any of you lefties willing to talk about this'. Well for Pete's sake, it just broke this morning (at least that's when I heard about it), and you are the first to post it here. Congratulations.
Anyway, my 2¢. I don't like high government officials that can't keep track of highly classified docs. Whether or not Berger had any other motives, I still have a very hard time accepting sloppiness in handling of sensitive material.
Was the timing of the leak political? Of course, but regardless it still needs to be investigated. It would be nice to account for the missing docs somehow.
As far as I can tell everyone here is conceding that the timing of this leak is political in nature. I don't see any "fog machine" taking effect in this thread. So should we should ignore something that should be raising red flags just because of the "odd" timing of its leak?
I think we are smart enough to be able to discuss more than one current event at a time.
Not quite ready to confess to fogging things up here... ;-)
But I will apologize for using the verb "extricate", which is a "loaded" word and implies something I didn't intend -- I was in a hurry with that post, and not as careful as I should have been. (Hey, I'm allowed to be sloppy in this context, right?)
And that's more apology than you'll ever get from CNN or Fox...
Exactly, that's why I was hoping we could stick to the facts we do know, and the ones from Sandy's own mouth are pretty good.
I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. It was an honest question.
You've often tried to jump on things I've said in past conversation despite my sincere efforts to remain diplomatic. I get the feeling you have quite the chip on your shoulder, please look into it. It is difficult to have an open and constructive conversation with you.
Was I wrong? Were you not inserting that into this forum in such a way as to insinuate some of us would prefer not to discuss this? Because if you really wonder why something that has only been in the news for a couple hours hasn't been picked over by us, I'm not always able to post things I see right away.
Why aren't we discussing ANY of the things people start threads about? Isn't that why you start a thread?
Yes, you were wrong.
I go out of my way to avoid garnering a topic spill-off that descends into political yelling, and do what I can in the conversations I contribute to to try to steer it back to the point.
I think you know that about me.
We, out here on the west coast get up a little later than the rest of the country so I was surprised that there was nobody talking about it.
Wouldn't be the first time.
But seriously, you are one of the people who comes down on us partisans for 'spinning' the issues. I felt you spun that one coming in, there are lots of other ways to get discussion going.
Ok, I see that. I just wish I didn't have to walk on eggshells around here.
BTW- I could have sworn I heard this story yesterday as I left work, but I can't nail down the time right now.
Lol, at least you know how I feel around here sometimes too.
Apparently it's been around for a while, if they've been investigating this for a while you know SOMEONE's known about it for some time. I heard the news reports this morning on the west coast. Wasn't watching the news the evening before, so sometime between then and this morning the story broke into the mainstream media. Like I said above, I'm not real happy about high government officials not being able to keep track of secret docs, but without evidence of ulterior motives besides sloppiness this is pretty much a non-issue. Berger wouldn't be the first person to do something like this.
Fine, but I don't want to hear about how this is an "important story." In fact it's an almost entirely synthetic story, and we going to see once again how easily we can be distracted from the far more important stuff coming this week.
So someone hi up in the government "losing" (I use quotes 'cause we don't know if it was accidental or not) documents that are super-classified is not important?
Again, I don't understand why you are discourging people from discussing this. When the 9/11 Comission and DNC threads pop up I'm sure they will be throughly populated. I don't think people are gonna stick to this thread and comment about nothing else that happens in the coming days. I have complete faith that people, at least in this forum, can discuss multiple current events at a time.
We all know the timig of this leak is politcal ploy but that doesn't mean we should ignore it outright.