What's so bad about a PC?

Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by agreenster, Jun 23, 2002.

  1. agreenster macrumors 68000

    agreenster

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Location:
    Walt Disney Animation Studios
    #1
    Yeah, I sucked you in with that nasty post title, but I do have an honest question, and its been a while since we've talked about it, so here goes:

    I am a pretty avid Apple user, and am a 3D animator. Since I have been studying 3D (maya, Cinema4D), I have had little choice bu to learn on a variety of hardware, including SGI's, Macs, and PC's. Everyone here constantly butchers PC's and say how incredibly crappy they are, and in many cases that is true. However, they sure can work pretty d*mn well just like an Apple can.

    I guess what Im trying to say is, I see strengths and weaknesses in all platforms. The best system (hands down) to import/edit/cut/export Digital Video is definitely through Apple. However, for raw 3D rendering and Maya work, there simply isnt the processor power available through a Mac. Ive used Maya on both mac and PC, and the PC just handles it better (comparing both top of the line processors). Yeah, Windows sux, (big time, I do nothing but use OSX when I can) but a good XEON processor just outperforms the G4 in many/most cases.

    I think Apple is really behind in processor speeds (numbers and mHz/gHz aside, Im simply talking about actual, see-able performance) and it would be a shame to see Apple suffer even more market share losses. Their style, their Operating system, and their dedication to their consumers are rarities in the world of personal computing.

    Who knows. Maybe Quartz exrtreme will take care of the lags in 10.1.5 (yeah, they are still there) but it sjust getting frustrating watching the PC's really boosting performance.

    Im rambling. I really just want to know if anyone else can see the value in a variety of hardware in the personal computing industry, or just that everyone here is completely hung up on Apple, and they are the only viable company. I mean, if thats the case, then what about SGI with their O2's that can run circles around ANY Intel, IBM, AMD or Motorola (Apple) chip?
     
  2. Grokgod macrumors 6502a

    Grokgod

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    Feb 26, 2002
    Location:
    Deep within the heart of madness!
    #2
    I AGREE AND disagree.

    First, I have a PC P4 2.2 and a MAC.

    So , i know how both work.

    I do agree that for video the MAc is the ONLY way to go!
    I tried to get a video card working in PC it was hell then it worked for a while then it didnt, then it did then I gave up!

    I plan to move from 3d studio max to Maya this year with some Cinema 4d and AMorphium thrown in for good flavor. I was running max on the PC, it was pretty good.

    Where I think we have a difference of opinion is that I dont find winxp stable.

    I find it irritating and although much faster, not dependable!

    I don't get a feeling that I can walk away form a render and that it will continue!

    So while I agree that right now the Pcheese has more raw power, there is NO doubt about that issue. It still doesnt have the stability that I crave.

    Lets Not forget that OSX is a new OS and that in the long run after APPLe has gotten to a decent level of Processor speed etc.

    It will be a battle of OS's!

    I believe that OSX will win this battle.

    and Finally I hate windows,I hate everything about it, I dont give a damn how FAST it crashes, I really can't stand that ugly b*t*ch!
     
  3. McFreggle macrumors 6502

    McFreggle

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Location:
    Dendermonde/Leuven, Belgium
    #3
    PC's ain't that bad...

    Hey,

    I've been trying to say this a couple of times allready in these forums... PC's really ain't that bad, and too many guys over here have a really black/white vision about things (Macs are good! Peecees are bad!). Actually, you're just like the guys in the PC-forums who say that Macs suck, and they get you pissed, don't they?

    I myself think I have an open mind. I use Windows 2000 (mainly), Windows 98, GNU/Linux, Unix, Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X, and there are things I enjoy on each one of them, and there are frustrating things on each one of them.

    Hey, it's true that PC's are more complicated than needed, and Windows 95/98/Me really are ****ing buggy systems, and it's hard to get some hardware working on a PC, and...
    And it's true that a Mac is far more innovative and easy to use, and that everything you need is available on a Mac, and that OS X is a really wonderfull OS (I love it), and it's so much easier to install some hardware on a Mac, and...

    But I am a power user. And when you know Windows from the outside, ànd the inside, and when you can tweak it completely, it is a very good system. And stable. Windows 2000 is really stable. I have an uptime of 209 days right now... and that's because I had a demo 209 days ago for which I had to move my computer.

    A PC is indeed too complicated for people who don't know how to use a computer. Hey, sometimes I work on a helpdesk, and life would be much easier if everybody would use a Mac. When people see me configure things on a Mac, they say: "Wow that's easy".
    But that's also my problem with the Mac. I miss 'control' on my Mac. I want easy configurations, but I also want to be able to do so much more. And sometimes that isn't possible on a Mac. I want to tweak every little bit of the OS, so it's fitted to my needs.

    Also, I am a WP user, and in the ancient times (WP 5.1) you had to know your keyboard shortcuts. It was a hell if you didn't know them, but you work SOOOO MUCH FASTER when you DO know them. A mouse is a handy, but slow device. And I don't like using it too much.
    I can control my Windows fully without using my mouse. I can't do that on my Mac. It's just too hard without a mouse.


    What am I trying to say here? I'm not saying Mac is bad. I'm just saying Windows isn't so bad either. Everybody has it's own taste, and it's own needs. Give everybody the freedom to use what they like. And if you have the chance: use both. It's a rich experience. I love Macs. They're terrific. But I'll never stop using PC's. And I'll also won't stop using my Mac now. I'll just keep on using both.
    Don't think too Black White folks.

    We can have such interesting discussions if you keep an open mind.

    My 28 cents.

    k.
     
  4. mac15 macrumors 68040

    mac15

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Location:
    Sydney
    #4
    I was going to buy a PC before I got my imac
    they seemed good, fast, cheap and there was a tonne of softwareand I could get a itanium for $2000 with 1gb ram and a 120gig drive
    my dad has connections ;)

    why I choose the mac I have no idea, it just seemed right
     
  5. Beej macrumors 68020

    Beej

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    Location:
    Buffy's bedroom
    #5
    Ask any tech who works with Macs and PCs... PC's just plain suck compared to Macs. Everything is harder to troubleshoot, for a start... and that reason alone is enough to hate PCs for me :D
     
  6. McFreggle macrumors 6502

    McFreggle

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Location:
    Dendermonde/Leuven, Belgium
    #6
    When I have to troubleshoot a PC there are a whole lot more steps that I can check to see where the problem is. That's a pain in the a$$, because the calls can take very very long, but usually I find a solution.

    With a Mac, most of the times it just works :D and if it doesn't, most of the times it's easy and quickly fixed, but when it isn't, it's very hard to search where else the problem can be... There aren't any registry settings to check and so on, so when it doesn't work, I don't know where to search.
    I've had some customers who had to reinstall their Mac OS to get things working again.

    k.

    PS: Again, I'm _not_ attacking the Mac. The Mac is a great machine, but I'm only trying to say PC's don't suck so much more.
     
  7. Beej macrumors 68020

    Beej

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    Jan 6, 2002
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    #7
    So you're saying you've never had to reinstall windows? Because you're a fricken amazing tech if that's the case!
     
  8. McFreggle macrumors 6502

    McFreggle

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    Dendermonde/Leuven, Belgium
    #8
    Thank you, thank you :D


    No, I admit... sometimes reinstalling Windows is the only thing left to do, too.

    k.
     
  9. jadam macrumors 6502a

    jadam

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    #9
    HOLY SH*T, AN ITANIUM FOR $2000!!!!!! ARE U SERIOUS, DO U Know what an itanium is?? its a 64bit processor from intel, and guess what, it uses ECC registered Memory, now guess what, that 1GB of ram costs around... ohhhhh.... lets see.... $1000+ now also, not to mention the Itanium is capable of around 16GB Ram(actually i think it was 32GB, but dunno), ALSO the ITANIUM COSTS AROUND.... lets see... $2000 per processor?? hmm.. I wonder, not to mention, mobo, gfx card, sound card, ethernet, and all of the other good stuff :) and BTW, Itaniums dont run normal windows Software, they are completely different, just like you dont run PS2 games on your Mac. You would of been forced to use Linux or ... dunno if its out, but WindowsXP 64-bit edition.

    But hey, if you can still get that PC for $2000, ill buy it from you for ohh $4000?? there you go, make an extra $2000 and buy an iMac :)
     
  10. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    San Destin Florida
    #10
    Look, here is the bottom line. Macs are cheaper to maintain, operate, upgrade, and manager. The OS gets out of your way and lets you work. God knows it is the most beautiful OS in the world, and offers stability that Windoze could only dream of. It is fluid, and very precise. People talk about how bad OS 9 was in stability. Well, try this on for size.

    We have about 200 PC's on our network. 1/2 are windows 2000 and the other 98. We have 400 Macs on the network. 2 run X, 10 run system 7, 20 run 8.6 and the rest are running some version of nine. Now, with that setup you would think the Macs would make just as many IT problems as the PC's. Nope. The Macs account for 5% of the problems we have. On top of that the Macs run 24 hours a day, and the PC only 8. So which is better. Get an MCP, or an MCSE. Go and work as an IT administrator, and you will learn to hate both Windows and Microsoft really fast. REALLY FAST!

    Oh, and your right. Sometimes you have to reinstall the Mac OS. And you know what, you loose nothing, nor do you have to reinstall anything. Try that on for size with Winblows. The closest you will ever get me to another PC is VPC.
     
  11. jadam macrumors 6502a

    jadam

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    #11
    well, im still buying a $500 PC fro playing games like Counter-Strike and GTA3(which *might* come out for Macs) and some other games, plus it will be a hell of a lot faster than my ibook for games :)
     
  12. agreenster thread starter macrumors 68000

    agreenster

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Location:
    Walt Disney Animation Studios
    #12
    Jadam

    Your estimate is a litte high. The Itaniums used to be 20 grand per chip, but now IBM sells a complete system for about 14.9 grand. 16gig is the Ram limit. 800mHz is the processor speed limit. (more proof that mHz doesnt matter as much as architecture.)

    64 bit IS the next wave. SGI has been doing it for years. (and years) Their processors kick major ass, and they only have speeds of 400mHz
     
  13. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Location:
    Natick, MA
    #13
    Don't expect to get anything close to hot performance from that $500 PoC...

    I am a tech that works on both Mac's and peecee's and I can tell you that most Mac issues can be resolved with utilities and a bit of intelligence. Peecee's on the other hand have less utilities and the ones that are out, do not run as well as the ones on the Mac. Just try to make a bootable utility cd for the peecee, that will boot any system built in the past four years. I have done that for the Mac, several times (as items get updated, I simply update the cd image).

    To repair a damaged system file on a Mac takes all of a few minutes (usually you boot from the OS install cd, delete the corrupt file and just have it install a fresh one). On the peecee, if you get similar file damage (and the resulting BSOD) you can pretty much forget about getting the system to run again until you wipe it and reinstall everything (major pain). I have had to do that on more then a few systems.

    Installing new hardware on the peecee can be a true nightmare, where on the Mac it [most of the time] is a snap. Moving PCI cards inside of systems is also very different. On the peecee, you have to remove the device from the OS, power down, move it to the slot you want it to be in, and then reinstall it into the system again. On the Mac, you power off the computer, move the card and power it back up (no extra steps).

    Both platforms do have their uses. I own both (built the game pc at home, did NOT buy one pre-made) but use the Mac (PowerBook G4, 800MHz) many times more then the peecee.

    Something else that shows how much better Apple is (as a company) then m$ is how they sell their OS's. With Apple, you get OS X (10.x) one version for everyone. With m$, you have to choose either heXPee home or professional. With the home edition, if you don't give m$ the info they want, you have a expensive door-stop after 30 days. Hell, you don't even need to send the registration info that Apple asks for if you don't want to (they just want to know who you are, and ask if you want to recieve news announcements via email, you CAN opt to not have that). If you have a system that didn't come with OS X, you can go out and purchase it (for a whopping $130). For that money, you get OS 9.2.x, OS X (10.1.x) and a developers tools cd. What do you get when you purchase the latest version of windblows (besides a shafting that is)? You get ONE OS, NO developers cd, IF you went from certain OS's, you HAVE to purchase a full version and cannot simply update. Other OS's of theirs, you HAVE to purchase a specific update (like from win2k you HAVE to get heXPee pro.) which costs more then Apple's full retail package.

    I think that the issue most Mac people have with peecee's is with the OS and company that sells that. M$ tends to try and snuf the competition, and claims to be the best OS in the world. Let's not forget about m$ bloatware and the office 'upgrades' that were really downgrades. In order to get m$ orfice to function with a moderate amount of stability, you need to disable some features that are active by default.
     
  14. Grokgod macrumors 6502a

    Grokgod

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2002
    Location:
    Deep within the heart of madness!
    #14
    Again I agree with ALphatech!

    I can also add another point.

    McFreggle, you talk about trouble shooting on the PC and how its done or can be done easily.'

    I don't want to trouble shoot a computer thats why I went to MAC's.
    I am an artist! Not a freakin computer tech. After years of using and trouble shooting PC's for myself and other people. I realized that I had been detoured by M$ into the abyss of computer time toiletries! Now I am pissed.

    One day I had enough of all the troubles fixing computers and moved to a MAC.
    I get much more work done!

    As for tweaking, OSX is tweakable enough for me, I work on my Mac.
    I am not searching for some delusion of control on it.

    So many Pcheesers are into tweaking thier machines, thats all they do.

    Surf for porn and tweak their machine, they are the monster truck guys of computers. There want the most power that they can get so that they can go around the block and make the most noise that they can.

    They always upgrade to have the best and all they do is type a few words in email and play games. I don't need a game machine, I have an xbox for that!

    I get work done on a MAC! I don't suffer from delusion or allow myself to be distracted by useless endless problems. I wont play the M$ control game either as Alpha Tech so well described!

    If I have a problem I call APPLE!
    I bought APPLE care, they will fix it.
    Makes me feel like an executive~! :p Calling his tech team.
     
  15. coolocity macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2002
    Location:
    Central New York
    #15
    macs vs. pcs

    I really dont' have a problem with PCs. Macs just seem to be a simpler machine, and as I always say, simpler is better. Neither of them are perfect, both have their flaws. From my experience with video editing, I'd have to say the mac just seemed to work better, while the PC would simply eat all my ram before showing any signs of working. Anyway, I guess the battle will go on for years to come, so just buy based on what you need it for. Both will be around for quite some time, so theres plenty of time to switch.
     
  16. McFreggle macrumors 6502

    McFreggle

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Location:
    Dendermonde/Leuven, Belgium
    #16
    Re: Again I agree with ALphatech!

    Hey Grokgod,

    I appreciate your input. First of all, let me get this clear: I certainly don't want a flamewar between PC-users and Mac-users. And if I would want it, this wouldn't be the right place.

    I just love both platforms. Now let me clear some things out.

    Well, I _totally_ agree on this one. I mentioned it: I am a power user. And I know how to use my Windows. But I realize that not everyone is or wants to be a power user. And that's when Macs are great. Everybody that wants a PC "that just works" with the latest, greatest technologies, and no technical mumbo-jumbo, should buy a Mac! I totally agree!

    Want the great things, without knowing about the bad things? Get a Mac! That's my clear message!
    Now, I can't help feeling a bit attacked here. Hey, I call myself a power user, and I love to tweak my PC and to upgrade it from time to time, but I don't recognize myself in what you're saying here.

    I don't play games. I get work done on my PC! And that's why I e.g. need my keyboard shortcuts! To get MORE work done on the same time. If you're working quickly, using a mouse is a waste of time in some cases. I think I can work much quicker on my PC than on my Mac, but that's because I'm a PC power user, not because the Mac is bad. And I'm convinced a newbie (I'm _not_ calling _you_ a newbie) can do more in a shorter time on a Mac.

    But don't say that all PC users are tweaking their PC's just for fun. I'm just trying to make my machine the best possible machine I can have (without it being a Mac :p -- joke)
    Very nice. Me too, I get work done on my PC. And I'm part of a tech team, so... :p

    But hey I repeat it: thanks for the feedback, and keep in mind: there's a right platform for everyone. The only thing I'm saying is that right platform isn't always Mac. As it isn't always Windoze or Linux or ... too.

    Kind regards,
    k.
     
  17. Ensign Paris macrumors 68000

    Ensign Paris

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Europe
    #17
    Hey

    Anyone noticed that the Mac PC Zealot campaign has gone away!

    Ensign
     
  18. Grokgod macrumors 6502a

    Grokgod

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2002
    Location:
    Deep within the heart of madness!
    #18
    O i can understand what your saying.

    Let me add that there is another realm of people that like you and I.

    Do get work done on a PCheese and are capable of fixing it when it needs fixing.

    But I just dont enjoy it anymore, I can understand that you do enjoy tweaking and fixing it.
    Maybe you don't enjoy monster truck pulls etc. As a consequence.

    maybe you fit into the grey area and are a truly intelligent person.
    That would make you a rare individual and I commend that certainly.

    Yet, for me. I do not want to fix my computer or tweak it or anything.
    I know that I have too! In order for it to work right.
    But I wll choose the platform that allows me to tweak the least and work the most.

    To use a pencil you have to sharpen it certainly.
    TOO much sharpening leaves you with a nub!
     
  19. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Location:
    Natick, MA
    #19
    Re: Re: Again I agree with ALphatech!

    There are plenty of keyboard shortcuts on the Mac, which are [honestly] easier to use then on the pc. For Just about all of them on the Mac, you just use the command key (the one with the Apple on it) and then the key. Sometimes you add a shift or option to the combination to get different effects. ALL applications share a few key commands... Such as quit (command+q), open (command+o) there are more, but all Mac people know these already (at least they should). Having the command key right next to the space bar also helps to locate it easier and faster... pc's on the other hand use the key furthest from the spacebar (I still have yet to use that for much of anything keyboard command wise).

    The Mac OS is just more intuitive then windblows... Considering how win apps can use one of a few differnet commands to quit, where ALL Mac apps use just one.
     
  20. gbojim macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2002
    #20
    I think the original question was can everyone see the value of a variety of hardware in the PC industry.

    Absolutely. There are some things MS does well - unfortunately operating systems is not one of them. Here is a list of the OSs that I have "supported" in one way or another over too many years. VM, MVS, VMS, MPE, NetWare, many different UNIX variants, MS-DOS, Windows 3.1 thru 2000, Mac OS 6 thru X. With everything that ran on a server type machine - not including the Windows stuff and I am including mainframes in that class - once you got the OS installed and configured they NEVER crashed. I've seen UNIX servers run literally for 6 years without ever being shut down or crashing. With desktop systems both Windows and Macs crash but Windows crashes far more frequently. I know some of you have a Windows box at home that has no problems - so do I - but wait until you have to support a couple of hundred Windows desktop machines - in most companies that is 2-3 full time jobs. You have a couple of hundred Macs and its a part time job.

    I think the problem is that MS has always been behind the functionality curve and they shrunk delivery times by sacrificing quality. That attitude has become so prevalent in the company that it is very difficult to break. A perfect example was a couple of months ago Bill Gates himself announced that MS would ship no new products until all bugs were fixed as MS was now focusing on quality. A lot of industry analysts at the time were carrying on about what a great leader Gates is. My perspective was what do you mean you are going to start focusing on quality? You should have been doing that all along to prevent the mess in the first place.

    Combine that with the way MS makes virtually everything they do proprietary to maintain their monopoly and we end up with the environment we have today.

    So I don't think MS sucks. I don't think Intel based systems hardware is any better or worse than Apple's. Other than the CPU and controller chipset they are basically the same anyway. But I do think that MS attitude has created a horrible mentality regarding computer use in that people expect computers to not work properly and require a magician to make them behave themselves. To me computers should be like a car - feed them some energy, perform some basic maintenance and use them for their intended purpose without hassle.

    Just my $0.02.
     
  21. Beej macrumors 68020

    Beej

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    #21
    LOL - and he's in Australia, so $2000 to him is about $1000 US :)
     
  22. mac15 macrumors 68040

    mac15

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2001
    Location:
    Sydney
    #22
    that was major factor also, I couldn't run windows (well XP home or pro)
    I had to get some linux crap so I thought stuff it, my imac is better anways:)
     
  23. madamimadam macrumors 65816

    madamimadam

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    #23
    Re: Again I agree with ALphatech!

    I don't know, I would have thought owning and using an XBox is playing the M$ game.
    ;)
     
  24. wsteineker macrumors 6502a

    wsteineker

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2001
    Location:
    Montgomery, AL
    #24
    Alright, I'm going to do my best to add something to this. I'm a student, and I have a variety of uses for my machine. Moreover, I've owned Windows machines (3.0, 3.1, 95, 98, ME, 200, and XP), Linux boxes (Mandrake, Redhat, and Slackware), and Macs (OS 9 and OS X).

    I think it's GREAT that there's a variety of system architectures and OSs out there. It fosters competition and creativity. Apple wouldn't have any reason to continue to innovate if it weren't for Microsoft. Microsoft wouldn't continue to push newer versions of its server software out the door if it weren't for Linux and Unix. Apple wouldn't continue to push the pro graphics envelope if it weren't for Sun. In the end, competition really is better for the user. Hasn't anyone been paying attention in antitrust class? :) Now for a bit of commentary...

    I was, for a while, into tweaking my computer. Seriously into it. My last PC was a 2.2 GHz P4 with 2 GB af RDRAM, 3x60 GB HDs, and a GeForce 3 Ti 500 running 2000, adn I built it from the ground up. It was my baby. I just don't think the monster truck analogy that Grokgod made earlier is appropriate. Most PC tweakers (power users) are much more like muscle car owners. They have these machines so that they can get under the hood and really force every last ounce of power out. No problem with that. All of the serious power user I've ever know use a flavor of Linux, though. It's a huge joke to call Windows tweakable when Linux is sitting right next to it. That OS was created from the ground up to be a gearhead's wet dream. Sort of like the difference between adding a lot of chrome and a new controller chip versus hand tuning the engine and installing a new exhaust system.

    I don't think that all of that power necessarily matters, though. Sure, x86 boxes are infinitely more customizable. IMHO, the real issue is usability. A lot of factors contribute to this. Stability and speed are important, for sure, but OS/GUI design is the biggest issue here by far. In that department, Apple takes the cake. What good does all of that power do if the end user can't manage it efficiently?

    Let's be honest here, we're talking about the general merits of systems. Overall, my 450 MHz Cube is, by a long shot, the greatest computer I've ever owned. Its paltry 100 MHz system bus may not be much, but it is so much EASIER to get everyting done on a Mac. i've taken tasks that used to take hours and reduced them to minutes. Things that took minutes on a PC now take secends. My machine may not be as fast, but I am a whole lot faster on my system. That's where quality and performance really start to show their stuff. ;)
     
  25. Jookbox macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    #25
    Re: Again I agree with ALphatech!

    geez and this thread started off so well.
     

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