whats with american citizens compedece in there countrys supremicy

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Mord, Feb 14, 2004.

  1. Mord macrumors G4

    Mord

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    #1
    I touched on this on the mac stoe in london thread but why is it that americans (not all but in genral) consider everywhere outside the u.s. to be poor run down crime riden non democratic place that have no influence at all

    the average american is $20,000 in debt.

    the european union is more economicaly powerfull than the us.

    the majority of us soil is owned by japanese citizens

    americas not that great in my humble opinion.

    why do you think it is?
     
  2. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #2
    Re: whats with american citizens compedece in there countrys supremicy

    ha! now we can't accuse you of making the same sort of generalizations you just accused americans of making. :)

    the short answer is: many americans are ignorant
     
  3. Mord thread starter macrumors G4

    Mord

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  4. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #4
    Stereo typing it sounds to me. remember at least our Mars missions are working;)
     
  5. Mord thread starter macrumors G4

    Mord

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    #5
    funny you should say that because nasa has just run out of funds for it's mars missions.

    it's not a stereotype as i speak from experience I know not all are like that but most of the americans i know are
     
  6. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #6
    Hector, consider a few items: For you, how many countries do you cross if you travel 2,000 or 3,000 miles? In the U.S., it's 3,000 miles from the east coast to the west coast. Many of us are "well-travelled" without ever leaving the country.

    Another item is that throughout all this travel, one need but know one language to do anything from get a hotel room or a meal to closing a business deal.

    A relatively few Americans get across the oceans, compared to Europeans who need cross only the Channel or the Med to find a completely different language or culture.

    For many people the only knowledge of foreign ways comes from the TV. Very little coverage of newsworthy events focuses on downtown London or Paris. People see the trouble spots, most of which are indeed shabby and poor. Other programming shows "quaint" places and people, where thriving economies are not common.

    As far as foreign ownership, that's mostly paper assets in the form of Treasury notes. Not a lot of real estate, actually. Some Japanese bought into real estate on a large money scale, but lost their shirts and sold out (Pebble Beach golf club; Rockefeller Center, e.g.).

    Debt? :D Most of my friends and family have a history of only using debt as a tool. What others do their problem. Now, if you're referring to and concerned about government debt, all I can suggest is that you not own fiat money. There are many other and more secure holdings.

    If there is a problem, it most likely lies in the notion that technical and military superiority somehow convey moral superiority.

    :), 'Rat
     
  7. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #7
    I'd say most PEOPLE are ignorant. It isn't something special to living in the United States. Not stupid, mind you. They just don't care about the truth too much.

    What is great about the US? We can CHANGE things.

    I'm not a super duper patriotic person. I consider myself a citizen of the world. I hate many things my government does. But I suspect that would be true no matter where I live.


    This being said, I do realize that I make the most difference right where I live and breathe. So my goal? To change the world starting with HERE!
     
  8. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #8
    Re: whats with american citizens compedece in there countrys supremicy

    And "us Americans" are the ones who are accused of being arrogant.

    Please provide us with some facts to back this up. Thank you.


    Europe is jealous of the U.S. thats why. Its the typical, we used to be the big kids on the playground, but now some new game came and he's all popular so we have to hate him, even though he helped us out multiple times.

    Now, I'm not saying the U.S. is perfect. Historically we have done some pretty not so nice things. Then again Europe was doing them for hundreds of years longer than we were.

    And I'm not saying I love our President (I voted for the other guy, and will again in a couple months, whoo hoo!) but it could be worse, I could live in France (blatant attack on
    religious freedoms anyone?)

    I think most nations like to have a sense of pride and think the country they live in is the better one. Otherwise why would they live there?

    I love the United States for so many reasons, but thats not to say I don't have complaints, and its not to say I don't like other countries as well. Heck I plan on living in Japan for a year and I'm thrilled. But thats beside the point. I guess the real questions to answer are:

    1) Why do Americans like America so much?

    2) Why do foreigners hate America so much?

    The two are actually closely related, and to find the answer we have to take a trip back in time:

    1700's
    Europe is the dominant world power. Various European nations have vast world spanning empires. French is the acknowledged language of international relations, much like English is today. Touting their cultural supremacy, European nations like England, France, and Spain are busy trying to make the rest of the world like them. This is not a new phenomenon, its how world powers always behave. Things are good for Europe. Then something happens that will forever change the shape of the world.

    1776
    An upstart little collection of colonies in the new world gets sick of being run by a bunch or guys from accross an ocean who have no connections with local issues. So they rebel. Now rebellions are nothing new, but rebelling against the most powerful millitary empire at the time isn't exactly a wise survival move in the eyes of most people. Except a funny thing happens. They win. They kick the british's butt (with a little help from the French) and establish a unique form of government that gives the people a more direct voice in their government than ever before.

    This little revolution sparks a world wide shift in power. Suddenly nations begin to realize that they don't need to be part of some vast world spanning empire. Even France has a revolution and implements a constitution based largely of off the US constitution.

    And that is reason #1 why Europeans don't like America, we knocked them off their perch as the leaders of the world.

    Now America is perfectly content to NOT be leaders of the world, after a little bit of continental expansion we're pretty much set (although this comes at the expense of the Native Americans, so its not without its problems). We in fact DON'T WANT to be involved in Europes problems.

    But things never work out the way you want them to.

    1917
    Three years into WWI the US's attempt at neutrality fails misearbly. Now we were happilly selling weapons to both sides, but Germany didn't like that, so we declared War on them and the rest is history. The allies are victorious and Wilson pushes for the creation of a League of Nations to prevent further war. The Europeans however don't make it easy. Doing things they way they have always done they exact HUGE reparations from Germany and its allies, crippling their economies and setting the stage for Hitlers rise to power. Disgusted with the Treaty of Versailles the US doesn't back the League and it fails.

    Fast forward to:
    1938

    Following Hitler's meteoric rise to power Europe is at war....AGAIN. Once again the US tries to stay out of it, but that never happens. So after France surrenders yet again, and everyone but England is pretty much beaten, the US enters the war and sends thousands of our young men to die to protect Europe, who are in a war because they just had to have retribution against Germany in the first place. This time things are different.
    The Allies are again victorious, but rather than crippling Germany (and Japan) again the US rebuilds them, in fact we help rebuild all of Europe. We don't make them colonies of the U.S. We help them become productive soveriegn nations. In fact Germany and Japan are two of the MOST succesful industrialized nations today.

    See thats a reason why I like America, we don't do things to expand our own power alone, we do things to help people to. Yes its sometimes in our best interests, but if you can help yourself and help the other guy, sounds like a great deal don't you think?

    So to make a long story short, the U.S. has basically spent the last 100 years cleaning up after Europes messes (Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East). Maybe thats why we feel some pride in our country.

    I get sick of people blaming the US for being the worlds policeman. We are the worlds policeman because the world put us there. WE DIDN'T WANT TO BE.

    Now not all the things we have done have been done well. Vietnam was run by politicians and turned into a huge quagmire, but only after the French lost control in the first place. And this latest war in Iraq (while it has been beneficial in some ways) was entered into on a basis of lies.

    Bottom line.

    The world hates the U.S. for the following reasons
    - We are succesful
    - We are powerful
    - We are young

    Europe is jealous of us. They want the glory days when they were the center of the world. The problem is they showed that they can't handle it. I can gaurentee you that while the European leaders complained vocally about the US invasion of Iraq, they went home at the end of the day glad that somebody final did what needed to be done.

    Frankly I think we should stand up to people like Sadaam more often. Its time to stop pussyfooting around this idea that people like him have the right to rule countries and we shouldn't get involved. We should, in every case get involved. Not because we should support our own interests, but because the people of those countries don't have anyone else to stand up for them. Its like walking by a school playground and not stopping a fight because you don't go to that school.

    Let the world hate America. We will continue to support freedom rather than persecution (Chirac opposes the war and wants to limit relgious freedom, our President (I don't like him much) gets up and tells the country NOT to discrimate against muslims).

    Should we have gone to war becuse of supposed WMD? No. Should we have gone to war because saddaam is a brutal dictator whos people have suffered because of him? Yes.
     
  9. Mord thread starter macrumors G4

    Mord

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    #9
    belive me we are not jelous of the us in any way shape or form.

    look at the euro and the dollar I know whart curency i would rather have.


    "Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East"

    by cleaning up our "messes" you mean killing thousands of people fighting for there country, right.

    if we hadent of stood up aginst hitler you wouldent have done so in our place, we saved the free world you cannot take our victory by giving some help at the end (though we did very much appreciate it).

    what do you acctually like about the us that isent available anywhere elce?

    free palistine
     
  10. D0ct0rteeth macrumors 65816

    D0ct0rteeth

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    #10
    Re: Re: whats with american citizens compedece in there countrys supremicy

    You are half right.. although I agree with some of what you say there is a complete other side of the story, in the way that america is portrayed and caters to the lowest common denomenator of greed and selfishness.

    Although FDR and some other presidents led us in a manner that was concerned in a global peace it takes a very nieve person to believe that Bush has been concerned in anything similar. Although most American do want world peace and want a utopian society many politicans are concerned more and more about themselves, and thier corporate allies.

    This is just as true in other countries.. the US is not the only country like this.. but we are so often under the microscope it is easy to point at bush, the carlisle group and our incompetent leadership again and again... then with enron and tyco this just reinforces the point. We dont look like leaders, but a bunch of arrogant jerks.. and thats just the beginning.

    Until we start acting like a real country again, actually take care of our people and accept the responsobilies there will always be resentment. Obviously we cant make everyone happy, but we need to take the hints when there is a reason and truth behind it... not for anyone elses good or as a public relations move.. but just because its in our best interests to do so.
     
  11. numediaman macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    "The world hates the U.S. for the following reasons
    - We are succesful
    - We are powerful
    - We are young

    Europe is jealous of us."

    Gee, thanks Krizoitz for proving his point! Talk about arrogance.

    But fess up Hector, who are you from, really? Do you type your responses drunk? or is English a second language? (which is fine, but I doubt you are English)
     
  12. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #12
    How is it arrogant? We are succesful, we have a strong economy and we have HUGE influence culturally. We ARE powerful, but unlike powerful nations in the past, we have done a pretty good job of NOT building world spanning empires because of it.

    Don't get me wrong I think for the most part Europeans don't hate us in general, any more than Americans in general think the rest of the world is back water, not as good as we are. I LIKE Europe and Asia. What I get sick of is everyone accusing America of doing all these terrible things and forget that we do more good than bad AND we haven't done nearly the terrible stuff that the old world has been doing for HUNDREDS of years.

    Its EASY to hate America, but just remember that France would be speaking German and the whole world might be speaking Russian if we hadn't done anything.
     
  13. whocares macrumors 65816

    whocares

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    #13
    Re: Re: whats with american citizens compedece in there countrys supremicy

    No. Most Europeans don't care.

    This is a sterile thread topic because anyone who posts is going to come off looking like an arogant fool, whatever their country of citizenship. And that probably includes me, so please don't ban me :p

    Let's all been "citizens of the world" (do I hate that expression) and forget where we come from. I think the "Location" field on user profiles should be limited to silly jokes or completely ridden with.

    Anyway, everybody knows that little green people from Mars rule! Talking of which, does anyone remember that Mars mission that crashed on one of the poles because half the team was working in metric and the other half in imperial? Boy does the metric system suck! Or should I say, Boy does the imperial system suck!
     
  14. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #14
    And for quite a while the Yen was stronger than the dollar, but America has an overall stronger economy because we have the raw materials AND the proccessing power. Europe as a continent might come close, Russia could probably out produce us if they had infrastructure.

    Yes, it wasn't done very well, but remember two things. First, we came in under the UN charter, so it was the ENTIRE UN's decision on those wars (obviously this current conflict doesn't count, I think alot of us think thats wrong). Second, the Europeans were the ones who had "colonized" those countries and started the killing in the first place.

    You're kidding right? You call allowing Hitler to take Austria and Poland standing up to him? You call France's bending over and surrendering at the drop of a hate standing up to him? Now I admit the Brits faught DAM hard against Hitler, but historians pretty much agree that GB wouldn't have been able to hold out much longer. Surrounded, no supplies, their allies fallen, you can only stand up so long. And lets not forget the fact that it was Europes blundering that allowed Hitler to rise to power in the first place. So yes we claim the victory. But instead of doing what Europe had done the last time, we REBUILT your entire continent.
    What other country that you know of has spent MILLIONS of dollars like we did in the Marshall Plan?

    I like the patriotism. I like freedom, yes you can get some of those elsewhere but not as much as here. European countries can control their press alot more than we can. Freedom of religion? Try telling that to all the Muslim's in France. Opportunity? The American Dream still exists, its why people continue to come to this country by droves. While I will be the first to admit that the white male still has an upper hand here, you can't find any country in the world with more ethnic and cultural and religious diversity.

    Now I am sorry that I said all Europeans were jealous, thats not true, many Europeans and Asians, etc are very proud of their countries and they have a right to be. England abolished slavery before we did, and that was good of them. France has a great history of culture, and without their help the American revolution might not have gone as well. I could go on. I really am sorry that I took such a bad tone about my world neighbors, it was somewhat arrogant and I do apologize.

    I don't apologize for standing up for America. I am sick and tired of hearing how terrible and horrible America is, but no one ever taking the time to thank us for the good things we do.

    You know, its funny. You claim that we were wrong for not standing up to Hitler. Ok, we should have. No we have a guy who is paralelling Hitler in a lot of ways (Hussein) and we DO stand up to him and people hate us for it.

    People accuse us of imperialism, yet we never ever try to set up these countries as colonies, we try and help them become independent.

    People accuse us of doing things for money, yet France opposed the Iraqi war precisely because they had just made new oil deals with Saddam.

    People are going to keep hating America as long as we are the only super power. Before they could hate Russia, now they just have us. But hate us as long as much as you want, you know that the MINUTE you are in crisis, be it terrorist, war, disease, etc. we will be the FIRST ones their to help you, we will bring money, and food, and supplies. If you need to be defended we will send our boys to die, just like we did in WWI and WWII and Vietnam and Korea. We will stand up to tyranny like we did in the Cold War. We will rebuild nations, even if they went to war against us. We will do what is right, sometimes make mistakes, but try and fix them and try and become a better country because of it. So keep on hating us, we will keep on helping you.
     
  15. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #15
    numediaman, are you unaware that the "jealousy" issue has been discussed for several decades? It was rather a hot topic during DeGaulle's reign...Heck, you can go back to WW II, when some in England griped that US GIs were "overpaid, overfed, oversexed and over here."

    "We are succesful
    - We are powerful
    - We are young"

    It seems to me that we did succeed in many ways. Just from the standpoint of goods and services, our 6% of the world's population produces right at one-third of the world's total economic activity. Japan is second, at roughly one-sixth.

    It is not even arguable that we have become the only superpower.

    As a nation, we are indeed young when compared to Europe. However, our democratic system is the world's longest lived, at present. Older than England, older than France.

    Sorry, but I see no arrogance in stating fact. That said, it's uncool for a champion to be snotty in his behavior...

    :), 'Rat
     
  16. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #16
    You can't be serious. That's an amazing over-generalization.

    This whole, "we did more than you" game gets tired very fast. Are France's contributions to America's liberty efforts to be discounted because they were unable to hold "La Ligne Maginot"? Are Europe's explorations of the world to be forgotten because of colonization and slavery?

    Almost every country has had its high and low points. We all need to get off our high horses and get on with improving the planet...together.
     
  17. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #17
    Tough to do when you think everyone else is jealous and has a chip on their shoulder.

    I've heard many people try to say if you opened all the borders in the world everyone would come to America.

    But right here in this very forum a few months back were posted the results of an exhaustive worldwide BBC poll that proved otherwise. A vast majority of people from a majority of the nations around the world would rather stay in their own country than move to America. Americans of course thought 90% of them would say that they'd move here.

    I really wonder where this misconception comes from. The bulk of people who seem to be banging down the doors to get in to the US are Mexican or Carribean. Why do we incorrectly assume everyone from everywhere is trying?
     
  18. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #18
    i'd move to london
     
  19. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #19
    I was thinking Montreal. Or the west of Ireland. Or the Caymans. Or Australia. I'd have to try them all.
     
  20. Mord thread starter macrumors G4

    Mord

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    #20
    I am english and i was drunk when i posted this topic Im also deslexic
     
  21. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    First, its spelled Palestine.

    Second, it hasn't existed since Biblical times.
     
  22. edesignuk Moderator emeritus

    edesignuk

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    #22
    My god, this thread is such an amazing waste of everyone's time...no one can "win" or come out looking good for what is said here :rolleyes:
     

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  23. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #23
    Nowhere is it written that a thread MUST get ugly. :D

    Hector brought up a good question, and as are many such, there's as much interpretation of events as there is fact. Perception, etc. A calm effort to present one's opposing view is not all that difficult...

    As far as the desirability of living in the US, remember we have over eight million illegal immigrants here. Sure, the majority are from Mexico, with the next largest group from Latin America. (And just what does that say about the systems "back there"?) However, newspaper reports taken from Border Patrol data show a notable number of people who have paid to be brought here from eastern European countries. Escapees from China are not an insignificant number, either, for that matter.

    All through the 1970s and 1980s there was a very large number of students from India who worked on degrees in computer science. Through the early 1980s NONE of them returned to India; they either started their own IT businesses here, or got employment here.

    And it seems like half the motels in the US are owned by people from India. At check-in, you better love the smell of curry. :D

    I guess one of the things which has kept me reasonably content, overall, with the behavior of the U.S. is that we aren't interested in any sort of empire in the classic sense. I guess you could stretch it and label our efforts an "economic empire", but we're happy for others to make a profit from our own efforts.

    No nation is perfect; no person is perfect. Heck, I don't expect to see perfection, not even when I shave.

    :D, 'Rat
     
  24. Mord thread starter macrumors G4

    Mord

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    #24
    what would like to know is why americans are so patriotic it just seems a bit weird.

    I was in america in the summer when someone was outraged that i used a dime to open a can of paint he wasent a crazy gun slinging republican he was an average looking guy.

    also wtf is with making children sulute the flag.
     
  25. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #25
    The dime thing just sounds kinda weird, I use coins to do stuff all the time if they are handy.

    As for the flag, its supposed to remind us of what our country stands for and for all the people who died to protect it. Sometimes people forget or just salute because of habit, but I can tell you that I never ever hear the national anthem without remembering people like my grandfather who faught in wars to protect my freedoms.
     

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