When will Apple eliminate Classic in OS X?

[RBMaraman]

Now that we are beginning to see machines that can no longer boot into OS 9, I began to wonder. When will we see Apple stop including the Classic environment in OS X?

Since I installed Jaguar, I have been OS 9 free. I don't even have Classic installed. I realize that many people do still depend on OS 9 and Classic, and that's why I think Classic will still be around for a few years.

I believe that by the time OS X.5 comes out, we will no longer see the Classic Environment. What do other people think? Do you even think Apple will eliminate Classic?

 

[kenkooler]

I think Classic will stay until XI, it doesn't affect the performance of OS X and its small, so I see no reason for removing it in the near future.

 

[FelixDerKater]

There is no point in taking it out anytime in the near future. People still have quite a bit of money invested in classic application. It only uses resources (other than disk space) when it is in use, so what would be the point of losing the compatibility?

 

[MacBandit]

I think it will might be around for another 5 years or so.

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I think it will might be around for another 5 years or so.

Considering SJ's agressive tendencies against OS 9, I think five years is way too long for continued Classic support.
I agree with RBMaraman, Classic will probably leave with OS 11. I only use Classic for one app, Adobe PageMill (it came free with my iMac DVSE in 1999, and I don't have the cash for Dreamweaver).

Just on a train of thought, here, but what if Apple gets rid of Classic with 10.5 or 10.6 (I'm just thinking about how big OS 8.5 and 8.6 were). If we see 10.3 this year, we could see 10.5 or 6 sometime in very late 2004, or during 2005. Apple may also decide to move to OS 11 after 10.4, or maybe even 10.3, considering the alterations that would need to be made for full 64 bit processor support (not that there's any evidence to support that claim, I'm just speculating here).

Anyway, Apple needs to scrap OS 9 booting completely before it can end Classic Emulation support.

 

[Chaszmyr]

I would say it will last atleast until OSXI

 

[IJ Reilly]

Everybody seems to be confusing two separate issues, Classic Environment and OS 9 booting. I expect OS 9 booting will go away later this year with 10.3, but that the Classic Environment will be with us indefinitely. Apple will make Classic look and feel as much like OSX as possible, but not get rid of it.

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Everybody seems to be confusing two separate issues, Classic Environment and OS 9 booting. I expect OS 9 booting will go away later this year with 10.3, but that the Classic Environment will be with us indefinitely. Apple will make Classic look and feel as much like OSX as possible, but not get rid of it.

OS 9 booting is already being phased out, and will almost be completely gone by the time 10.3 is released.

I don't think Apple wants to continue to put its resources into the Classic Emulation longer than it absolutely has to. While it doesn't take up a whole lot of Hard Drive space, it does take quite a bit of work to put together (or so I've heard).

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Tell me if iam wrong but i see os9 as holding back osx. osx could be optimize more so if it didnt have to be able to run os9 at all. sure its a good argument for the os9 users to keep it but like many i have rid myself of all 9 period. i dont even have 9 classic! OSX was a little scary for me at first, but now i cant even think of using 9 and have realized just how awsome X is. Give me Puma and the 970 chip!

 

[biscool]

Tell me if iam wrong but i see os9 as holding back osx. osx could be optimize more so if it didnt have to be able to run os9 at all. sure its a good argument for the os9 users to keep it but like many i have rid myself of all 9 period. i dont even have 9 classic! OSX was a little scary for me at first, but now i cant even think of using 9 and have realized just how awsome X is. Give me Puma and the 970 chip!

How is classic holding OS X back? There is a limit on how optimized os x can get, there will be a point when the next version is slower, not faster, just like windows updates and new games. Why do you want 10.1? Cheetah was 10.0, Puma was 10.1, Jaguar is 10.2, and Panther is 10.3

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Maybe i meant panther, 10.3 whatever they call it along with a 970 and 9700 radeon.

 

[rainman::|:|]

it'll be gone when quarkxpress is released. Panther would be a good time if quark gets off it's ass about it...

true no development has to go into it, since 9 is dead, but they still have to keep making sure classic will run in the OS.

pnw

 

[coolsoldier]

Well, 68K emulation stayed in classic OSes all the way through OS 9 (as far as i know it's still there). What's to say they won't do the same with classic, eventually the overhead will be low enough that classic or not won't even matter unless you want to run a classic app.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster

OS 9 booting is already being phased out, and will almost be completely gone by the time 10.3 is released.

Yes, on the hardware level. What I'm predicting is that OS9 booting will likely vanish on the OS level with 10.3. At this point, there's almost no justification for retaining OS 9 booting. But there is a tremendous justification for retaining compatibility with legacy applications, which is why I believe the Classic Environment will be with us for a long time. Post 10.2 it just won't be called OS 9, and using it will become much more transparent to the user.

Maybe I'm totally wrong with these predictions, but this roadmap just seems so completely obvious to me.

 

[Gus]

While Quark is definitely a more heavily-used product, I will dump Classic off the hard drive when Finale from Coda Software is finally OS X native. MIDI playback and score playback do not function properly in X. I could go with Sibelius, but I don't want to relearn all of my composition skills in a new program.

Regards,
Gus

 

[3777]

Never, that would be foolish. Did Microsoft ever get rid of Dos capability in its operating systems? No thank god!

 

[guifa]

Originally posted by Gus
While Quark is definitely a more heavily-used product, I will dump Classic off the hard drive when Finale from Coda Software is finally OS X native. MIDI playback and score playback do not function properly in X. I could go with Sibelius, but I don't want to relearn all of my composition skills in a new program.

Yes, when the hell is Finale going to be released? They already released a major update without any hint of OS X support.

 

[Bear]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Everybody seems to be confusing two separate issues, Classic Environment and OS 9 booting. I expect OS 9 booting will go away later this year with 10.3, but that the Classic Environment will be with us indefinitely. Apple will make Classic look and feel as much like OSX as possible, but not get rid of it.

I suspect OS 9 booting will only be eliminated for new models anytime in the near future.

Anyone who has a machine that can boot OS 9 now, probably will be able to do so for at least the next couple of years. If Apple drops OS 9 booting for existing machines, that will mean people won't upgrade the OS X version if they still need the OS 9 booting capability.

Anyway, by mid-summer (northern hemisphere) expect that none of the computers being sold by Apple will support OS 9 booting.

I can see Apple shipping new machines next year without OS 9, but I expect that whatever version of OS X is around will support the existing classic (and OS 9 booting) that people already had.

 

[FattyMembrane]

classic is not holding back the os. classic is a glorified emulator. my copy of snes9x does not hold back my machine in any way. classic will be around for a long time because there are other quirky little apps that people need that will never be osx native. if having classic integrated into the system ever becomes a problem, it can just be turned into a seperate app. people still use apple II emulators in osx so i doubt that in 6 months os 9 will miraculously vanish.

 

[RBMaraman]

Originally posted by 3777
Never, that would be foolish. Did Microsoft ever get rid of Dos capability in its operating systems? No thank god!

It's interesting that you mention DOS. My parents used to have a Compaq Presario (I switched them to a 17" iMac in December ), and the thing refused to boot into MS-DOS mode. Even that DOS-Prompt app in Windows refused to load. I never figured out why I couldn't get DOS to work.....oh, well.

Anyway, back to the topic. After reading several posts, I'm beginning to see why Apple would keep Classic around for a while, but I still don't think it'll be around for that much longer. Remember, Steve wants OS 9 to be completely dead. I think he probably includes Classic as part of the funeral.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Bear

Anyone who has a machine that can boot OS 9 now, probably will be able to do so for at least the next couple of years. If Apple drops OS 9 booting for existing machines, that will mean people won't upgrade the OS X version if they still need the OS 9 booting capability.

This is a very limited number of people, and they are already precluded from buying a new Mac, which means a heck of a lot more to Apple then OS upgrades.

I'm sticking by my prediction: the next version of OSX will include a non-bootable version of OS9, and it will no longer be called OS9, it will simply be the emulation layer used by OSX to run legacy applications. That emulation layer, whatever Apple chooses to call it, will be around for as long as running legacy Mac applications remains relevant -- IOW, indefinitely.

 

[Bear]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I'm sticking by my prediction: the next version of OSX will include a non-bootable version of OS9, and it will no longer be called OS9, it will simply be the emulation layer used by OSX to run legacy applications. That emulation layer, whatever Apple chooses to call it, will be around for as long as running legacy Mac applications remains relevant -- IOW, indefinitely.

You're forgetting the fact that OS X does not come with OS 9 in any form. All it comes with are the pieces that allow OS 9 to run as classic.

Therefore your prediction is meaningless.

Like I said, I can see Apple not shipping OS 9 with new machine sometime early next year. But if you have OS 9, you would be able to install it under classic.

And I can see Apple dropping classic in OS 10.5 or OS 11, however this is still a couple of years out. My bet is 10.3 will still have classic support.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Bear

You're forgetting the fact that OS X does not come with OS 9 in any form. All it comes with are the pieces that allow OS 9 to run as classic.

Really? So when I set my Startup control panel to boot the Mac into OS 9.2, it isn't really starting up in OS 9.2, because OS X doesn't come with OS 9 in any form?

 

[Jimong5]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly


Really? So when I set my Startup control panel to boot the Mac into OS 9.2, it isn't really starting up in OS 9.2, because OS X doesn't come with OS 9 in any form?

no, it starts up OS 9 because you installed OS 9. If you formatted your HD and just installed 10, you would not be able to boot classic

 

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Jimong5

no, it starts up OS 9 because you installed OS 9. If you formatted your HD and just installed 10, you would not be able to boot classic

Right, and if I didn't install iPhoto, I could not run it -- which is quite a different statement then the one to which I was responding. Once again, this was: "OS X does not come with OS 9 in any form. All it comes with are the pieces that allow OS 9 to run as classic."

This is plainly incorrect. The Classic Environment for OS 10.2 is still a fully-bootable OS 9.2 (unless you own a 2003 Mac).