White only scholarship in R.I

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Krizoitz, Feb 15, 2004.

  1. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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  2. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #2
    The screeching, yowling and howling oughta be interesting. Seems kinda neat that the leader on the deal is a Riqueno.

    (Does somebody know how I can put a tilde over the n in Riqueno? What sequence of controls to use?)

    'Rat
     
  3. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #3
    the great übergeek taught me this. its "alt/option" plus the letter, then the letter again. so alt-n, and then n will give you ñ. :)
     
  4. AMDMACMAN macrumors newbie

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    #4
    What a racist scholarship, i can not believe that such racism still exists in todays american society. White people dont need scholarships. They get so many benefits from "the man" as it is. I am gonna call the great reverend Jessie Jackson. Within a matter of days this program will be shut down and be forced to pay the way of 25 underqualified black people through 4 years of high quality university education.

    Only minorities should he allowed to discriminate and be racist.
     
  5. Krizoitz thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #5
    please tell me this is sarcasm...
     
  6. AMDMACMAN macrumors newbie

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    #6
    Sarcasim, how dare you insult my afro-american heritage. My ancestors were slaves and your ancestors enslaved them. I know it is like 95% sure that your ancestors probably immigrated after slavery but still you benifit from being white in a white only society. I am sick of only getting afirmative action and black only scholarships. I want a complete free ride. Pay for me to be alive, at white peoples expensive of corse.

    And if you find this to be wrong, then you are just a racist piece of dog doodoo!
     
  7. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #7
    Sarcasm I think, and he's pissed off about something or other too. Probably from a stereotype he's bought into.
     
  8. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

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    #8
    Yeah, I mean, you're right in being sarcastic - black people have it SO easy these days.

    I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with this scholarship (as in I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to give the money away - obviously). I just think that, along with a lot of people, they don't really get it.

    Racism is not just treating one race different from another. Racism is when societal power is enacted on one race as a means of opressing them. This is still happening today to many blacks, and that's the kind of thing minority scholarships were created for - to give them a leg up against the tide of racial power. Minority scholarships don't opress white people.

    A majority scholarship doesn't opress black people, either, so I don't think it's necessarily racist - I just think the motives of it's creators are a little confused about what racism actually is.

    And I've had family here since the late 1600s, and asking me to write an essay about the "pride of my white heritage" would be a selective process. I think about the only thing I am proud of of my white heritage are the selective times when they finally got their foots out of their asses and stopped trashing other races. The essay I would REALLY like to write is the shame of my heritage for creating the slave trade, for continuing racism for hundreds of years, calling for segregation as recently as a generation ago, for the mass geoncide of the entirity of Native American culture and the vast majority of its people, for taking up until one hundred years ago to let women vote, on and on. My family came over here the sons and daughter of privileged wealthy merchants and slave traders (as I recently discovered during a genealogy project) - I'm supposed to be proud of that?

    Please.

    Minority scholarships are not racist, they're designed to fight racism and to encourage minority students to apply to certain schools to bring in a minority perspective. So long as people of varried races continue to be treated differently, people of differently races will continue to BE different, and thus will provide a variety of perspectives - a valuable tool to the educational process. College admission is not a matter of merit (I have no idea where this idea came from) - it is not a reward for academic acomplishment at the High School level. It's all about what you will bring to the University Community. And one of the most valued things a person can bring is their unique perspective of the world, which is why minority perspecitves are so rewarded through Afirmative Action (not just for different races, but regionality, too - a kid from the South has a better chance with the same credentials of getting into a northern school as a kid from the North) and minority scholarships in order to enhance the ENTIRE student body's college experience by providing the invaluable diversity of perspective so critical for education and the development of critical thinking and civil debating skills.

    Just my thoughts on the issues of racism.

    Davis
     
  9. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #9
    AMDMACMAN, tell me something: Am I wrong in seeing a message in scholarships based on ethnicity, or in race-norming of test scores, that "You can't make it on your own merits"?

    It seems to me that's the view of this spoof of scholarships. It has nothing to do with anybody's "need". Again, note that the lead person is of a minority group.

    There is an unintended consequence to non-merit entry into colleges: There is a lack of confidence in the competency of all of a group because of a view that "He couldn't have made it on his own." To me, that's sad because of its effect on an entire group. It is showing up in society now with respect to doctors who happen to be black.

    'Rat
     
  10. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #10
    First let me say that I have never in my life looked an African-American (or other minority) in a high position and thought they got there because of their race. That is just ridiculous. Perhaps I should start looking at white males in high positions and wonder if they just got there because they were white males? That would make more sense.

    Second -- The terms for which a person must "have merit" to get into college is racist. The SAT's are normed on white middle class males of the 1950's. So if you aren't a white middle class male, then screw you! when it comes to taking them.

    The college I graduated from made it easy for anyone to get in but not easy to get out. I thought that was a good policy. They accepted most of their applicants. But only those who could do the work could graduate. Everyone got a chance to prove themself. EVERYONE! And that is the way it should be!
     
  11. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #11
    The only thing that bugs me about this scholarship is that they ask you to praise your 'white heritage' as a criteria. That's just asking for trouble. I'd rather they simply said it was for whites only, and would be based on merit and need exclusively. That would seem a fair protest of affirmative action. I don't care if there are scholarships out there for small groups, that's always been the case. I've heard of ones where you have to be the child of a parent who worked for some company, or where you had to be a descendant of someone who fought in some war, all kinds of little niche scholarships. Nothing wrong with it.
     
  12. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

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    #12
    Just to back you up here, I went to college on a $500 scholarship for Asthmatics.

    Davis
     
  13. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #13
    all of this just goes to show we have a screwed up education system based on $$$ not on a kids ability. same as Healthcare based on $$$ and Hmo's not based on providing Healthcare. Its all about $$$. when we start having education for everyone and healthcare for everyone this will all go away.
     
  14. AMDMACMAN macrumors newbie

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    #14
    Scholarships based on anything but merit are TOTAL BS. I know many of you probably are white males and that probably most of you arent.

    Recently(within the last 5 years) applied for college and needed a little financial help. Someone suggested to me to go to my high school conselor and ask for the scholarship listings. I looked them over and(not to my suprise) i found none that applied to me. I was an average student and really was not expecting any free ride. The thing that got me "hot and bothered" was the blatent racism that was shown in these scholarships, many of which had no mention of a academic standard, but which did mention the various minority requirements.

    Was i native american, amfrican america, hispanic, female, disabled?

    NO

    I was discriminated on the basis of race. That pissed me off.

    Also I have seen in my life 2 instances of a good friend of mine being looked over for a job due to him being a white male. He had a masters degree but both times a black female got the job over him. THis was for the same position at a local college. I know this is not scholarship related but it is still eduaction industry racism.


    I guess i am just upset that i had no part in holding any minority down and now they get special benifits that possible hold me and my friends back in life.

    its just plan old racism
     
  15. Krizoitz thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #15
    Here's my take

    A private organization offering a scholarship based on racial criteria, fine by me. It's there money they can do whatever they want with it.

    The government offering money based on sex/race. That is wrong.

    A private organization only accepting members who meet certain criteria, fine by me. Boy Scouts, Mensa, Girl Scouts, etc.

    A school accepting people based on race/sex is wrong. Dead wrong. Why should someone be punished because they are white? Minority admissions criteria is supposedly used for two reasons.

    1) make up for economic disparity

    2) increase diversity because it is supposedly better for education

    Looking at criteria one its simple to discount it. Affirmative action and minority admissions policies are based on the idea that being a minority means you were economically disadvantaged. Well I can tell you that I know plenty of economically disadvantaged whites. So if you want to make up for economic disparity, use family income as a criteria, not race.

    While I agree that ethnic diversity can be a good thing, does that mean we exclude people based on race? Doesn't that seem to foster racism too? I don't care who I go to school with, if they are black, white or green. But i'd rather go to school with people who earned the right to be here. I think race based admissions cheapens the achievements of minorities and creates enmity.
     
  16. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #16
    Try being black for a month. You'd go postal.

    Well that tells us something about your midset right there.

    You automatically conclude that a black female was less able to perform a job than your white male friend. That sounds like a racist assumption to me.
     
  17. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #17
    mac, aren't the SATs based on what you learn in school? Are there different curricula for the various ethnic groups in a school? A more real question, of course, has to do with why don't people learn the rules of the game? If tests are biased by cultural aspects, it behooves on to learn within that culture. Last, should the tests be changed such that the majority testees should have to learn the ways of a minority?

    In my era, there was the American College Entrance (IIRC), the "ACE" exam. I don't recall anything on it that didn't relate to what I had learned in school, as opposed to any cultural stuff. Math, spelling/definitions, etc.

    This accusation against the SAT has been around for decades. Were it factual, something would have already been changed.

    pseudobrit: A buddy of mine was on a flight out of Seattle. His seatmate was a young black woman. Seems she was a senior in Chemical Engineering; she'd been on a plant trip for a job. He asked what sort of salary she could command. Her wide-grin reply was, "Oh, about double."

    'Rat
     
  18. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

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    #18
    Just to clarify and answer one of your questions, I the SATs are not designed to necessarily test anything you've learned in school - they're more in the line of IQ tests in that it is supposed to be a simple indicator of what you are intellectually capable of doing in the future, rather than what you have been taught in the past.

    That being said, they are complete BS. Here are the facts (and these are general facts) - black people do a lot worse on these tests than white people across the board. That's the general trend. Now if you believe these tests to be the standard of intelligence in the academic world, then you would have to argue, as Herstein and Murray do in "the Bell Curve" that black people are less intelligent than white people. Now if you want to come out and say to the board and to the public that black people are naturally dumber than white people, that is fine by me, and I would applaud you for being bold and consistent in your beliefs. However, I would also curse you for being horribly misguided in your understanding of education and standardized testing.

    Here's the deal - the SATs try to be indepedent of cultural influence, but that's impossible. You can't write a test question that is not at least somewhat influenced by the culture from which it is written. And, hate to say it, but these tests are written by white dudes, and thus test in accordance to the dominant culture and ideology of our country - wealthy, white men.

    Whenever I discuss the cultural aspect of testing questions I'm reminded of the math word problem I had when younger that asked me to find the quickest path to a convience store and the units were in city blocks. Being a born and bred NH hick, I had absolutely no idea what a city block was. The only thing I could think of were oversized toy letter blocks on street corners - I figure they must have these somewhere. And even though the subject matter wasn't dependent on the specifics of the question (it was a math question), it was nevertheless difficult for me to answer when I couldn't picture the problem in my head.

    You are right about people needing to learn "the rules of the game" if they want to succeed, and, indeed, this is what many culture of poverty theorists argued in the late 1960s - people including Lady Bird Johnson. It's the line of thought that gave us programs such as "Head Start". But if you're going to argue that this is the way it should be, then you're essentially advocating a system in which merrit is distributed in such a way as to punish those not born, much against their behoovment, into the priveledged, test-writing culture, and to reward those who are. This is contrast to the idea of "all people created equal". If you are born and bred in a culture not rewarded by the sytem, then the system is going to be that much harder for you to enter in to. You do also know, don't you, that preaching a conformity to the test-writing culture is a call for mass assimilation of culture, correct? Which can be argues as being benefitial to society, because a homogenic culture is one with less tension. But to combat this I would have to take a page out of genetics and say that a varried gene pool is the most adequate way of adapting to changing environments. We shouldn't preach cultural assimilation because it's going to shoot us in the foot down the road. A varied culture is a prospering, thriving culture - any democracy thrives on the differences of ideas.

    Something needs to be changed, and your argument of "if it were factual something would be changed" basically proves the point that it is factual - every year more and more schools stop requiring the SATs. I got into Middlebury College in VT and went without ever telling them how I scored on the SAT I's - they, along with a large number of colleges, have dropped the standard because they see it's shortcomings, and realize it is in no way an accurate way of determining the contribution you will make to their college community (which is the ONLY critera of college admission - none of this "merit" bull****).

    I take it from you misinterpretation of the SATs as something currriculum based that you are not familiar with standardize testing. But I will tell you right now that, as an educator and life-long educatee, I find them to be among the scourge of society - a true societal ill that is holding back a lot of intellectual and social/political progress. We need to get it out of our ignorant heads that it is in any way possible to quantify something so culturally dependent as intelligence. The alternative would be the devotion of more resources to the process of evaluation such that students are evaluated not in accordance with numbers, or letters pretending to be numbers (ie grades), but by comprehensive WRITTEN evaluations by those closest to the student, and by face to face interview. This is the best way to determine who will add the most to your college community.

    And before I leave let me say this in capital letters: COLLEGE ADMISSION IS NOT, AND SHOULD NOT BE, BASED ON MERIT OF PERFORMANC IN HIGH SCHOOL. This is the myth of high education that pisses me off more than any other. As rapper-poet-philosopher Rakim once said "it ain't where you from - it's where you at". I don't care what you did in High School, I want to know what you are going to do for me in my classroom once you get here. And sure, I'll look at your past performance to help me make an educated guess, but I don't confuse that for a second for being a matter of "merit". Merit is junk - we need to stop our whol whining about what we earned and what is owed it us and concentrate more on what we have potential of doing.

    Just my two cents as an educator. Sorry this is such a long post (I'm pretty passionate about this)

    Davis
     
  19. Macmaniac macrumors 68040

    Macmaniac

    #19
    I have talked to a lot of people about the SAT, all it really tests is how well you take the SAT. Its not not anything you have learned in school. ETS is more concerned with cashing your check then seeing anyone get a good score. Their test plays by no ones rules but their own. You could be a 4.0 GPA student and get a 600 total on the SAT. The SAT is all about knowing how to take the SAT, it has nothing to do with a persons knowledge, all it has to do with is how well you can decode the test.
     
  20. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #20
    That's quite an anecdote but it really does nothing to address the topic.

    Even if we assume your friend relayed the story entirely accurately, there's way too much ambiguity in his question and her reply (as stated above) to be taken seriously as any sort of "affirmative action gone wrong" scenario.

    I'd be inclined to think it was her degree that would give her the salary advantage and not her race, but that's just me. ;)
     
  21. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #21
    Or maybe it was her talent? A black woman who is really good at her job and can command double the normal salary because of it? Nah! couldn't be - could it? ;)
     
  22. Krizoitz thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #22
    College shouldn't be about academic merit? Are you kidding me? Of course it should be, thats the point. I don't think it should ONLY be about academic merit, I think they should take into account other factors. Yes interviews help, letters help, but interviews take a lot of time and money, and letters are very very biased. You only get letters of recomendation from people who are going to say good things about you.

    When I was applying for colleges about 6 years ago I got the opportunity to talk to some admissions advisors. They do use things like grades and scores as indicators, but those are not the only criteria they use by far. But when you are choosing between THOUSANDS of students with only a limited admissions staff you have to use ways to decide.

    If there was a magic way to determine whether a person was going to be the best choice than I am sure they would use it. But we can't even define best. So colleges take a variety of measurements and use those.

    The idea that "merit" is useless confuses me. Everyone knows the stakes going in, the better you do in high school the better your chances are at college. Why shouldn't you have to prove that you deserve it? Merit isn't just about getting good grades in high school its about the EFFORT to keep those grades good or even to improve those grades. Of course its what college admissions are about and what they should be about. Not only but definitely part. Why should someone who doesn't try get in because they are a minority and will supposedly provide some improvement for the system? Its just like any competition, you have to EARN your place, college isn't a right. Part of that earning is doing well in the prelims (in this case high school). It doesn't gaurentee success but it certainly makes it more likely.

    Is the system perfect? No, probably not. Should we try and improve it? Yeah probably. Should we throw out the current system just because it isn't perfect? Not unless its terribly wrong and it seems to me that it works pretty well the way it is.
     
  23. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

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    #23
    All I am saying is that it is useless to think of college as some sort of reward bestowed upon those who have for whatever reason "earned" it. Colleges have it in their best interest to create an environment which supports their values (usually academic integrity, intellectual diversity of opinion, on and on). Think of a college as a business. Do you get hired for a job in a business because they look at your resume and say "you know what, he did a really good job at company X - let's give him this job here at company Y because he has earned it through all his hard work". No - you get a job because company Y thinks you are going to be a valuable asset to company Y, not because you have "earned it" by your work for company X.

    Now I'm not stupid, the best way to determine how well a person is going to contribute to your company/community is by looking at the contributions they have made in other places. But it is wrong to think that job hiring or college admission is based on "merit" because that implies you get the job or you get into college based on something you did in the past that his "meritted" you this opportunity. That's just not the way it works. You get a job and you get into college because of what those hiring you/accepting you think you WILL do in the future - something you have yet to do, but have potential of doing down the road. It's a subtle distinction, I know, but this whole issue of "merit" has gotten a lot of people not involved in higher education all ruffled about Affirmative-Action - citing it as "reverse descrimination" because white people who have "earned" a spot at so and so college are being denied entry so that black students who have not "earned" their spot can attend.

    Well you know what? It's not about "earning" anything - it's about your contribution in the classroom. And I will tell you right now that the sole black person in a class of all white New England kids here at the University of New Hampshire is a much more valuable asset (disregarding all other aspects) than any white student, simply because they can tell a whole class room of white kids (who, in all honesty in this state, have probably never talked to a black person) just what it is like to be black in this country, and at a rural University with a 98% caucasian enrollment. That is an ESSENTIAL component of higher education.

    Pound for pound the black kids are more valuable than the white kids and I'm not afraid to say it. Along these same lines a kid from Alabama is more valuable than a kid from Concord, NH, and a kid in a wheel chair is more valuable than the kid who can walk - all because they teach a lesson to those middle of the road, average Joe-NH students you can't teach through book learnin' alone - the lesson of respect of differences, and the valuable insight of a perspective much different than your own.

    Davis
     
  24. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

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    #24
    Just to clarify, when I said "written evaluations" I didn't mean letters of recomendation (which are very biased, and only written to cast the student in a glowing light) - I meant something more along the lines of impartial evaluations, semester by semester, written by teacher's in the place of grades. I think an ideal high school transcript wouldn't be a one-page sheet of A, B, C, D, or Fs, but a portfolio of critical written evaluations by all the teacher's the student has studied with. Sure, that's a lot for a college admissions staff to look through, so I wouldn't object to keeping the letter-grading system in place as well, but I think critical, uninflated written evaluations would be a much better way to evaluate these kids, and would really help guide them in their improvements, etc.

    Davis
     
  25. AMDMACMAN macrumors newbie

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    #25
    \

    Wrong, I clearly stated that my friend was more qualified. not because he was a white male, but because he meet the criteria for the job posting. if the black woman was more qualified it would make sense, but since she wasnt it is racist afirmative action, from a school with a very open afirmative action policy.
     

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